Free

Originally posted by josephw
"Evidently looking at a four verse passage of the words of Jesus and taking the time to understand what He is saying is more trouble than it's worth."

Don't be insulting. To tell you the truth, what is "more trouble than it's worth" is trying in vain to get you to stop playing that one note song all the time. YOU CAN'T HEAR ME.

Apparently you fail to ...[text shortened]... free, then Christ died in vain)

But you don't get! I wish you did, but you don't.

"In the same passage Jesus states that it is HE that MAKES one free.
He says nothing about one MAKING ones self free by keeping the law or doing anything else."

Jesus says, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Here Jesus explains the process in detail. First, you must "continue in [His] word", i.e., continue to follow His commandments. Only then are you a true disciple. Only then will you know the truth. Only then will you be made free. Clearly being made free is contingent on continuing to follow His commandments. So, according to Jesus, there is something that you need to do.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"In the same passage Jesus states that it is HE that MAKES one free.
He says nothing about one MAKING ones self free by keeping the law or doing anything else."

Jesus says, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Here Jesus explains the process in deta ...[text shortened]... o follow His commandments. So, according to Jesus, there is something that you need to do.[/b]

Do you honestly believe that salvation is contingent on our obedience?

How much obedience? Is it required that one keep the whole law?

Do you honestly believe that a man can of his own strength and ability discontinue sinning by keeping the law?

Originally posted by josephw
Do you honestly believe that salvation is contingent on our obedience?

How much obedience? Is it required that one keep the whole law?

Do you honestly believe that a man can of his own strength and ability discontinue sinning by keeping the law?

"Do you honestly believe that salvation is contingent on our obedience?

How much obedience? Is it required that one keep the whole law?"

Is there a reason you seemingly refuse to discuss the words of Jesus? You seem to keep falling back on what you believe. You seem to keep falling back on what you've been taught.

The important thing here is what JESUS has to say. Earlier you said something to the effect that you believe everything that Jesus said. Then, why do you so consistently evade what Jesus actually said? In this verse Jesus explains the process by which one is made free from committing sin. It is not about "salvation". If you want to discuss salvation, we can do that later. How about addressing this verse?

"Do you honestly believe that a man can of his own strength and ability discontinue sinning by keeping the law?

Whether or not it is purely of a man's own strength and ability, Jesus does not say. What He does say is that one can be made free from committing sin by knowing the truth. A truth that can be known by following His commandments and being a true disciple.

BTW, there is a post at the bottom of the previous page. Can you respond to it?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Do you honestly believe that salvation is contingent on our obedience?

How much obedience? Is it required that one keep the whole law?"

Is there a reason you seemingly refuse to discuss the words of Jesus? You seem to keep falling back on what you believe. You seem to keep falling back on what you've been taught.

The important thing here ...[text shortened]...

BTW, there is a post at the bottom of the previous page. Can you respond to it?[/b]

"You seem to keep falling back on what you've been taught."

And you don't?


Okay. Let me get this strait. So what you're saying is, is that there is a distinction between salvation and being free from sin.

Is that true? Just how do you word it?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"You seem to keep falling back on what you've been taught."

And you don't?


Okay. Let me get this strait. So what you're saying is, is that there is a distinction between salvation and being free from sin.

Is that true? Just how do you word it?[/b]

What I'm saying is that you continue to avoid discussing the words of Jesus as they are contained in John 8:32 and more generally in John 8:32-36. What I'm saying is that we can discuss salvation later if you like. For now, can you simply discuss the points I've brought up about John 8:32?

And once again, there is a post of mine at the bottom of page 4. Can you respond to it?

For someone who purports to believe everything that Jesus said, you certainly are reluctant to discuss His words. Instead of discussing them, you keep changing the subject. You'd think that you'd be more than willing to discuss what Jesus said. What are you afraid of? That maybe you'd find that what you believe does not coincide with His words?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus is not speaking of being made "free from the penalty for sin" in this passage. Jesus is speaking of being made free from committing sin. Jesus not only doesn't mention "penalty for sin", He explicitly says "committing sin."

I tried earlier to give you a chance to prove your assertion. I'll give it to you once again, though I suspect you'll declin ...[text shortened]... hy are you so reluctant to actually look at the words Jesus is speaking?

Jesus not only doesn't mention "penalty for sin", He explicitly says "committing sin."
-----------------------ToO-----------------------------

Yes , he does explicitly say this - or at least this is the translation - this suggests to me that he may have been refering to the acts of sin that are deliberate and wilful (ie a committment to sin) and not acts of sin that are unintentional or accidental (which Paul often refered to)

A moments thought would help you to see that there are clear distinctions within the world of sin and that Jewish language accounted for this.

You still cannot prove or show in any convincing way that Jesus is talking about ALL sin here. Until you can do this your entire position remains on thin ice.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What I'm saying is that you continue to avoid discussing the words of Jesus as they are contained in John 8:32 and more generally in John 8:32-36. What I'm saying is that we can discuss salvation later if you like. For now, can you simply discuss the points I've brought up about John 8:32?

And once again, there is a post of mine at the bottom of page ...[text shortened]... u afraid of? That maybe you'd find that what you believe does not coincide with His words?

Yes I have, and no I'm not.

We never really discuss much of anything. I think it's because you fear that somehow someone might get the best of you.

I don't think you are aware that it is you that is avoiding. It makes it difficult to get from point A to point B.

Being made free from slavery to sin, and salvation, are one and the same.

Originally posted by josephw
Yes I have, and no I'm not.

We never really discuss much of anything. I think it's because you fear that somehow someone might get the best of you.

I don't think you are aware that it is you that is avoiding. It makes it difficult to get from point A to point B.

Being made free from slavery to sin, and salvation, are one and the same.

From what I can tell, it is your assertion that in John 8:36 Jesus is speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin.

If you read His words in the passage John 8:32-36, it is clear that He is speaking of being made free from the slavery of committing sin as shown in John 8:34 ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.'" ). He is not speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin.

How you can continue to ignore this fact is beyond me. No matter how many times I've put this right in front of your face, you continually ignore it as if it doesn't exist and still hold fast to the idea that He is speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin. Yet, you accuse me of "avoiding". You're going to have to explain that to me.

It's as if you are saying, "What Jesus said in this passage is irrelevant. What matters is that I believe Jesus frees us from the penalty of sin, so that's what Jesus must mean when He says, 'So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed'.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
From what I can tell, it is your assertion that in John 8:36 Jesus is speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin.

If you read His words in the passage John 8:32-36, it is clear that He is speaking of being made free from the slavery of committing sin as shown in John 8:34 ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, [b]everyone who com ...[text shortened]... s must mean when He says, 'So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed'.

"If you read His words in the passage John 8:32-36, it is clear that He is speaking of being made free from the slavery of committing sin as shown in John 8:34 ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.'" ). He is not speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin."

For the sake of the argument I'll concede this point.

Now tell me. Are you a slave to sin? Or have you been freed from slavery to it? Do you still sin?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"If you read His words in the passage John 8:32-36, it is clear that He is speaking of being made free from the slavery of committing sin as shown in John 8:34 ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.'" ). He is not speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin."

For the sake of the arg ...[text shortened]... me. Are you a slave to sin? Or have you been freed from slavery to it? Do you still sin?[/b]

How are these questions relevant? Jesus said what He said. Whether or not I or You or one thousand or one million or one billion people are slaves to sin, doesn't have any effect on what Jesus said. Either you believe Him or you don't.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How are these questions relevant? Jesus said what He said. Whether or not I or You or one thousand or one million or one billion people are slaves to sin, doesn't have any effect on what Jesus said. Either you believe Him or you don't.

Nothing is relevant as long as you fail to answer simple questions.

I've answered you, but you won't accept the answers.

Simply knowing what Jesus said isn't enough. Knowing how to obey His commands is another matter altogether.

Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. But we know that we don't have the capacity within ourselves to obey that command. We have a sin problem. We cannot obey while we still have sin.

I think you cannot grasp the concept.

Originally posted by josephw
...Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. But we know that we don't have the capacity within ourselves to obey that command. We have a sin problem. We cannot obey while we still have sin.
...

How much of this statement "..We cannot obey while we still have sin.."is based on assumptions and deductions that may not necessarily be right?

King David had a sin problem (probably more than most) and was also able to obey the law (probably more than most).. and called a man after Gods own heart.

We all have the capacity to sin and we all have the capacity to obey the law .. 'love thy neighbour' included. ALL people have the same capacity to know good from evil and to choose good or evil. Paul states very clearly ...

Romans 2 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..

According to Paul, Gentiles whose conscience guides them to follow and obey the law are DOERS of the law and will be justified.

Originally posted by josephw
Nothing is relevant as long as you fail to answer simple questions.

I've answered you, but you won't accept the answers.

Simply knowing what Jesus said isn't enough. Knowing how to obey His commands is another matter altogether.

Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. But we know that we don't have the capacity within ourselves to obey that co ...[text shortened]... in problem. We cannot obey while we still have sin.

I think you cannot grasp the concept.

"But we know that we don't have the capacity within ourselves to obey that command. We have a sin problem. We cannot obey while we still have sin."

How do you "know that we don't have have the capacity within ourselves to obey that command"? What is the source of this knowledge? Is it a teaching of your church? Is it a teaching of Paul? Is it a teaching of the Bible? Is it based on your personal experience? If you place any or all of these sources above the teaching of Jesus, then ultimately those sources are your "Lord", not Jesus. Because Jesus taught otherwise. Jesus taught that if you continue in His word, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free from the slavery of committing sin. He says this, but for whatever reason, you don't believe Him.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"But we know that we don't have the capacity within ourselves to obey that command. We have a sin problem. We cannot obey while we still have sin."

How do you "know that we don't have have the capacity within ourselves to obey that command"? What is the source of this knowledge? Is it a teaching of your church? Is it a teaching of Paul? Is it a ...[text shortened]... lavery of committing sin. He says this, but for whatever reason, you don't believe Him.[/b]

You're unaware of the irrationality of your statements aren't you?


"If you place any or all of these sources above the teaching of Jesus,..."

Ultimately, every word of the Bible are "the words of Jesus". To suggest that I place more importance on Paul, or the church, or anything else is misleading.

It seems that you discount the entire Bible since you only read the "words of Jesus". Pathetic. Cultish.

Originally posted by josephw
You're unaware of the irrationality of your statements aren't you?


[b]"If you place any or all of these sources above the teaching of Jesus,..."

Ultimately, every word of the Bible are "the words of Jesus". To suggest that I place more importance on Paul, or the church, or anything else is misleading.

It seems that you discount the entire Bible since you only read the "words of Jesus". Pathetic. Cultish.[/b]

"Ultimately, every word of the Bible are "the words of Jesus". To suggest that I place more importance on Paul, or the church, or anything else is misleading."

There's nothing "misleading" about it. Take the passage that we've been discussing. Jesus explicitly and clearly states that you will be made free from the slavery of committing sin. Yet you insist that He is speaking of being made free from the penalty of sin. You didn't get this from Jesus, so where did you get it from? Whatever your source, it is clear that you place that source above the explicit and clear words of Jesus. To deny it is what is "irrational".

You now claim that "every word of the Bible are 'the words of Jesus.'" Jesus did not teach this either. Seems like there is much that you believe that didn't come from Jesus.

"It seems that you discount the entire Bible since you only read the 'words of Jesus'."

The point you keep ignoring is that I place the teachings of Jesus first. The parts of the Bible that I discount are the ones that contradict His teachings. You, on the other hand, seem to discount the teachings of Jesus that are contradicted by other parts of the Bible. This is evidenced by your insistence that Jesus was speaking of freedom from the penalty of sin.