freewill..........again

this just confirms that god gave us freewill. it doesnt address why some people choose good and some bad.

Notice that the choice before the first man was between God as life and independence from God.

There were two trees in the garden. It was not as we might assume a tree of good on one side and a tree of evil on the other side. Rather the knowledge of good and evil were on the same tree. The Bible's revelation then of the basic choice is between God's way of life and any other way. That any other way may seem good or may seem bad. But it is simply not God's way.

So you have the basic dichotomy between "the tree of life" and "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" .

Good and evil are both on that one tree which God warned would bring death. This profound fact alone is enough to persuade me that this writing is not merely human mythology but the divine word of God.

"And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL." (my emphasis Genesis 2:9)

We might see from this that a sin against good is not as serious as a sin against God's authority.

Put another way, a transgression against good, choosing evil instead, can be forgiven more easily. But a transgression of rebellion against the authority of God Himself as the uncreated eternal Life is more serious.

The dichotomy is really between life and death, between dependence of the Author of life and "the Other Way whether it seem good or it seem evil."

The Other Way is the way not ordained by God. It turns out that the master of the Other Way is Satan. It may seem at first good. It may be exposed latter as in fact evil.

God did not instruct man to be good. God commanded man to be careful what he ate. That is to be careful what he took into himself. What he ate is what would constitute his being.

"And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may ewat freely. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (vs. 16,17)

It is crucial to see that in the beginning the great choice was for man to be careful for what he ate. There is God's food, or rather God Himself as food and there is "the Other food". Regardless of how well it sounds, how useful it sounds, and how pleasant and desireable it is advertized, it is the Other Way and not the way of God. And its result will be death.

God has provision today for one's bad acts. God has redeemption to save from one's evil acts. But to fail to take God in as one's "food" today is far more serious. It is emphatic that a man open his heart to "eat" Christ who says not "I am ... the life".

Today this "tree of life" is definitely the Lord Jesus Christ the resurrected Lord who said "As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

We must "eat" this Living One, take Him into our hearts, into our innermost spiritual being in order to live by Him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I told you already. Since Lucifer already had the knowledge of good and evil and he was made perfect by God and given free will to think what thoughts he chose, it was his free will to choose his thoughts.

The Holy Bible points out that he was aware of his beauty and splendor and his position of prominence at the throne of God as the covering cherub. How ...[text shortened]... u don't get that explanation, then I am afraid I will be unable to help you.

The Instructor

I told you already. Since Lucifer already had the knowledge of good and evil and he was made perfect by God and given free will to think what thoughts he chose, it was his free will to choose his thoughts.

this doesnt answer the question. saying he had freewill to choose, doesnt explain why he chose what he chose. it just explains that he had a freedom to choose.
saying he knew he was beautiful and had a position of power doesnt answer the question. why was he more aware of himself, why did his position of power corrupt him?

human's bad thoughts come from the brain or soul (depending on your belief) our souls corrupted by sin, give us bad thoughts. where does satans bad thought originate from?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]I told you already. Since Lucifer already had the knowledge of good and evil and he was made perfect by God and given free will to think what thoughts he chose, it was his free will to choose his thoughts.

this doesnt answer the question. saying he had freewill to choose, doesnt explain why he chose what he chose. it just explains that he had ...[text shortened]... our souls corrupted by sin, give us bad thoughts. where does satans bad thought originate from?[/b]

Maybe you could answer your own question by asking yourself why you have bad thoughts and why you do the bad things you do and sin against God. If you can't answer that, then perhaps there is no way for us to know what makes others think the way they do either. We will just have to leave it at that.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe you could answer your own question by asking yourself why you have bad thoughts and why you do the bad things you do and sin against God. If you can't answer that, then perhaps there is no way for us to know what makes others think the way they do either. We will just have to leave it at that.

The Instructor

i believe my and all bad thoughts come from a mixture of genetics and more importantly life experience.

so your answer is - you dont know.
well i have to respect that, its a far more honest answer than people blaming freewill, which is just ridiculous.

the way i see it is, it is a paradox. god created everything (which includes whatever causes bad thoughts) but god is good and cannot do wrong (so he cannot cause bad thoughts). thus its impossible for him to exist.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i believe my and all bad thoughts come from a mixture of genetics and more importantly life experience.

so your answer is - you dont know.
well i have to respect that, its a far more honest answer than people blaming freewill, which is just ridiculous.

the way i see it is, it is a paradox. god created everything (which includes whatever causes b ...[text shortened]... ood and cannot do wrong (so he cannot cause bad thoughts). thus its impossible for him to exist.

Since you take no responsibility for your thoughts and actions, then all I can say is prepare yourself for hellfire.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Since you take no responsibility for your thoughts and actions, then all I can say is prepare yourself for hellfire.

The Instructor

really? is this what you want to reduce the conversation to? do you feel you need to put words in my mouth to win points? not very christian rj. poor show old chap.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
really? is this what you want to reduce the conversation to? do you feel you need to put words in my mouth to win points? not very christian rj. poor show old chap.

It is very Christian to warn you of dangers on the road ahead of you and a fate worse than the death of the body,

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is very Christian to warn you of dangers on the road ahead of you and a fate worse than the death of the body,

The Instructor

warning me by claiming i had said things i didnt, i dont think god would approve.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
warning me by claiming i had said things i didnt, i dont think god would approve.

It is what God thinks that matters.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is what God thinks that matters.

The Instructor

you seem happy enough to guess at what god has prepared for me. yet when i ask you what god thinks of you, you clam up with 'its what god thinks that matters'

well id bet my bottom dollar that your god doesnt like hypocrites, especially smug, hypocrites and especially smug, hypocrites that has an ego big enough to itself the moniker 'the instructor'

see you in the hellfire rj.

What we have in the Bible is polar ultimates.

Look at the English alphabet. You have A and you have Z at the two ends. In between A and Z you have the other 24 letters. The terminal points encompass the other letters on either side.

In the communication of God to man you have the WORST possible fate and the BEST possible fate of man. And in between you have a large scope of situations within the boundaries of these to ultimate ends.

"Behold then the kindness and severity of God" (Romans 11:22) writes Paul. In the book of God God is obligated in Himself to inform us of these two polar ultimate destinies.

It is understandable that the Ultimate Governor would inform us of these two ends of possibilities and the vast scope between them. It looks very binary. And it is in a sense. But there is also a wide scope of ways God may deal with His creatures in between before either of these two ultimate destinies is reached.

I think we should, upon learning how to be saved, first assure ourselves of God's faithfulness that we are headed towards the kindness ultimate rather than the severity ultimate.

Many other things can be worked out while we are on the journey towards God's best.

Originally posted by sonship
What we have in the Bible is polar ultimates.

Look at the English alphabet. You have A and you have Z at the two ends. In between A and Z you have the other 24 letters. The terminal points encompass the other letters on either side.

In the communication of God to man you have the WORST possible fate and the BEST possible fate of man. And in between ...[text shortened]... te.

Many other things can be worked out while we are on the journey towards God's best.

what kinda things are inbetween?

what kinda things are inbetween?

More situations than I have the wisdom to predict what God will do in many of them. But He knows everything.

Cases calling for which we do not know enough how God will resolve.
Cases in which rejection was not of Christ but of perverted religion.
Cases in which ignorance was present.
Cases of mental impairment.
Cases of aborted human beings.
Cases of children who died before an age of accountability.
Cases where Christian needing severe discipline.
Cases where Christians need some discipline.
Cases where Christians receive reward in addition to salvation.
Cases where one was faithful to the light they had.
Cases where judgment begins at the house of God.
Cases of goodness but lack of forgiveness of others.
Cases of badness yet forgiveness of others.


The Bible itself in its 66 books should show us that God's wisdom is ready to handle all kinds of varied situations. From Genesis to Revelation all kinds of reactions to God are read about.

I would not be surprised if we discover a gene that dims people's intellect in such a way that they can actually believe religious dogma. It is just beyond me how anyone can think there is a god who actually listens to their prayers for a football team to win or their daughter to get onto the cheer leading team. Even worse is when they use prayer instead of medical science when their children are ill. If there is a Prime Mover who started all that exists, this god is subject to all the laws of nature it put in motion. It is neither omnicient nor omnipotent nor does it give a twit about what any of us as individuals do or think. Your soul is the good and evil left behind when the last breath leaves your lips. If you live a loving and compassionate life, you will be rewarded right here on Earth with a lsting joy and happiness that is unmatched by any material wealth. I doubt most people, upon their death beds, say they wish they had acquiered more stuff. I'm guessing most wish they had realized their true treasures lie in the relationships they have with family, friends and all living things.

Originally posted by sonship

what kinda things are inbetween?

More situations than I have the wisdom to predict what God will do in many of them. But He knows everything.

Cases calling for which we do not know enough how God will resolve.
Cases in which rejection was not of Christ but of perverted religion.
Cases in which ignorance was present.
Case ...[text shortened]... of varied situations. From Genesis to Revelation all kinds of reactions to God are read about.

do you have examples of the various different outcomes?