Genesis 19

Thanks to all who participated. A nice discussion. If someone wants to expand the discussion to challenge certain viewpoints expressed, go at it.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Thanks to all who participated. A nice discussion. If someone wants to expand the discussion to challenge certain viewpoints expressed, go at it.

Thank you, Kirksey. I'll begin the discussion.

Calling out Lucifershammer!

You stated that this scripture teaches us that homosexuality is contrary to God's will/wishes. Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

"For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." Genesis 19:13

I don't see any explicit references to homosexuality. For all we know, God could have been angry with them for worshipping false idols, being unkind to visitors, not wiping their shoes off before entering the tabernacle, etc. Back then, God wasn't very patient with folks like he is now.

Originally posted by eagles54
This chapter typifies for me why it's difficult to take much of the Bible seriously.

Two girls (among many interesting themes) get Dad trashed on successive evenings and bed him?

I'm not sure what teaching incest points toward.

So I take it that you do not see the Bible, or at least this chapter, as a "family values" book.

Originally posted by kirksey957
So I take it that you do not see the Bible, or at least this chapter, as a "family values" book.

I find great value in some parts of the Bible. It "speaks" to me in those cases. It resonates within me. In other areas I'm confused as to the underlying meaning and intent of passages. I'm told by many that the Bible must be accepted in its entirety or it cannot be accepted at all.

I've wrestled with many questions that naturally arise in my mind each time I read it. I have yet to meet anyone that can give me explanations that I can understand. For instance, why does Lot offer up his daughters for the crowd's pleasure in Gen:19? What is the wisdom in this act of familial betrayal? I'm not receiving a family values message in that chapter at all. What am I missing?

Originally posted by eagles54
I find great value in some parts of the Bible. It "speaks" to me in those cases. It resonates within me. In other areas I'm confused as to the underlying meaning and intent of passages. I'm told by many that the Bible must be accepted in its entirety or it cannot be accepted at all.

I've wrestled with many questions that naturally arise in my mind ...[text shortened]... betrayal? I'm not receiving a family values message in that chapter at all. What am I missing?

I was hoping that some of the regular posters to religious debates would help you answer these questions, but they are no where to be found it apears. I would simply say this about the passage. Whatever you may think of Lot's behavior or the behavior of his daughters, it is in there. No Victorian prudishness about hiding it away in the closet.

Originally posted by eagles54
...For instance, why does Lot offer up his daughters for the crowd's pleasure in Gen:19? What is the wisdom in this act of familial betrayal? I'm not receiving a family values message in that chapter at all. What am I missing?

There is no wisdom in Lot's decision to offer turn over his daughters. All we can know is Lot is a sinner, and yet God saved him from destruction. Just as God loved Jacob, and hated Esau, and found Abel's offerings worth but not Cain's. All of them we equally flawed. Some were downright nasty at times. God blessed David despite many of his sins. You will not find a person in Scripture who pure and good at all times. God did not choose them due to something they did, or any particular characteristic they had. God simply loved those he did for his own purposes.

Originally posted by Coletti
There is no wisdom in Lot's decision to offer turn over his daughters. All we can know is Lot is a sinner, and yet God saved him from destruction. Just as God loved Jacob, and hated Esau, and found Abel's offerings worth but not Cain's ...[text shortened]... they had. God simply loved those he did for his own purposes.

But I thought "God is Love", not "God is a self-serving psychopath who loves whom he chooses to love".

Originally posted by darvlay
But I thought "God is Love", not "God is a self-serving psychopath who loves who he chooses to love".

He chooses because - in those immortal words - "we're not worth!"

Originally posted by Coletti
He chooses because - in those immortal words - [b]"we're not worth!"



[/b]

Either God is Love (which is an absolute statement) or he is not.

Originally posted by darvlay
Either God is Love (which is an absolute statement) or he is not.

It is also a metaphor. What does it mean?

Originally posted by Coletti
It is also a metaphor. What does it mean?

Beats me. But thank you for clarifying that God is actually not love.

Originally posted by darvlay
Beats me. But thank you for clarifying that God is actually not love.

As George Carlin put it:

"...[god's] gonna send you to hell. But he loves you!"

Originally posted by darvlay
Beats me. But thank you for clarifying that God is actually not love.

God is love. I don't know disagree with that. But if you don't know what it means, then why say it?

Originally posted by darvlay
Thank you, Kirksey. I'll begin the discussion.

Calling out Lucifershammer!

You stated that this scripture teaches us that homosexuality is contrary to God's will/wishes. Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

"For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us ...[text shortened]... re entering the tabernacle, etc. Back then, God wasn't very patient with folks like he is now.

Bump.

Originally posted by Coletti
There is no wisdom in Lot's decision to offer turn over his daughters. All we can know is Lot is a sinner, and yet God saved him from destruction. Just as God loved Jacob, and hated Esau, and found Abel's offerings worth but not Cain's ...[text shortened]... they had. God simply loved those he did for his own purposes.

uhm...correct me if I'm wrong but didn't God 'save' lot from a destruction that God, himself, created? Does this really count as mercy? What about the rest of the people in the town? Were they really really bad sinners, and by this I mean worse than offering their children up to a gang of rapists?

Look, the fact of the matter here is that God's actions were completely indefensible based on the information we have. I'm not saying that on some higher plane or with more information God would not look like a total jerk but as the story is told God is a jerk. I have plenty of evidence in my own life where I believe I have been shown mercy by God and I think he is pretty cool. The Bible, especially the old testament, does not do a good job of revealing 'the coolness of God' and I see no reason to make apologies for it.

The Bible is a book with a lot of problems, written by men who aparently spent a good portion of their life on some sort of narcotic. The sooner we, as Christians, start living lives that are more representative of Gods love and stop wasting so much time trying to make the Bible look sane, the better off we will all be. Simple as that...

TheSkipper