1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    19 May '06 20:29
    Before you say this is a rant, don't worry I know it is...

    God ain't easy. A lot of you guys go on about awkward questions and things that don't 'add up' ,.... always looking at what God should be doing or hasn't done , instead of what he has done....it's like you expect it to be plain sailing......don't you have a concept of spirituality being something you struggle with and challenge your own preconceptions? Or do you want it all laid out on a plate like the fundies do! You're constantly looking for flies to put in the ointment and spokes to put in the wheel and whilst I'm not asking anyone to believe anything they find ridiculous...it seems to me that what you focus on is what you get...problems! Even if someone gives you a half solution you just create another problem out of it. It's not surprising God seems unbelieveable. You never even give the guy a chance!

    Go for your questions (you'll find plenty of them in the Bible) but don't expect a Hollywood sunset God and when you don't get it throw your hands in the air and say "there...I told you it was all a load of XXXX" . You will just confirm your own beliefs to yourself. It's messy , dirty , sometimes frustrating , sometimes enlightening...there aren't many easy answers ...if you want them go back to nursery school...God ain't easy. GET USED TO IT.
  2. Standard memberChurlant
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    20 May '06 13:17
    God is the ultimate "easy answer".

    You don't know how life originated. You don't know if we continue to exist when we die. You don't know the purpose of your life. The answer?

    God.

    No need to question anymore.

    -JC
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    20 May '06 13:31
    Originally posted by Churlant
    God is the ultimate "easy answer".

    You don't know how life originated. You don't know if we continue to exist when we die. You don't know the purpose of your life. The answer?

    God.

    No need to question anymore.

    -JC
    I agree . 'God' can easily be turned into a formula for easy answers. Creationist fundies , cult followers ,the cuddly J.Witness God with all the airbrush photos of sheep and lions. Yuk! But do you not see the other side? The times when you wish God didn't exist so you could do the 'safe' thing. The call of christ to love even those who try to kill you . The struggling with sin when others around you are telling you not to bother. The trials of faith when all seems impossible. Look at the disciples. Jesus wrecked their lives! Did Job think God was full of easy answers? Flip your coin over and have a look at the other side.
  4. Standard memberChurlant
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    20 May '06 14:53
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I agree . 'God' can easily be turned into a formula for easy answers. Creationist fundies , cult followers ,the cuddly J.Witness God with all the airbrush photos of sheep and lions. Yuk! But do you not see the other side? The times when you wish God didn't exist so you could do the 'safe' thing. The call of christ to love even those who try to kill yo ...[text shortened]... think God was full of easy answers? Flip your coin over and have a look at the other side.
    Sin lies in hurting others. I have no need for a God to understand that harming other people is wrong. All I need in that regard is a slight bit of empathy.

    -JC
  5. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 May '06 16:54
    Originally posted by Churlant
    Sin lies in hurting others. I have no need for a God to understand that harming other people is wrong. All I need in that regard is a slight bit of empathy.

    -JC
    I have no need for a God to understand that harming other people is wrong.

    The question is whether you can tell another who is harming other people that it is wrong? By what authority?
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    20 May '06 17:33
    Originally posted by Churlant
    Sin lies in hurting others. I have no need for a God to understand that harming other people is wrong. All I need in that regard is a slight bit of empathy.

    -JC
    Ok , I applaud your empathy but out of interest , do you feel that harming others is wrong in ANY context. Gandhi for example is quoted as saying " There are many causes I would gladly die for , but none for which I would kill" . What I am asking is are there conditions attached to your empathy or is your love for humanity unconditional? Or does your belief system mean you aspire to this love?
  7. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    20 May '06 20:58
    Originally posted by Halitose
    [b]I have no need for a God to understand that harming other people is wrong.

    The question is whether you can tell another who is harming other people that it is wrong? By what authority?[/b]
    Certainly not by the authority of an old myth.
    You need to update your religion, leaving out the Sumerian proto-science.
  8. Standard memberChurlant
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    20 May '06 23:56
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Ok , I applaud your empathy but out of interest , do you feel that harming others is wrong in ANY context. Gandhi for example is quoted as saying " There are many causes I would gladly die for , but none for which I would kill" . What I am asking is are there conditions attached to your empathy or is your love for humanity unconditional? Or does your belief system mean you aspire to this love?
    Harming another human being is wrong in a basic sense. Of course there are situations in which this harm can be justified - self-defense, as an example, but the act of hurting or killing another is not only (obviously) destructive to that other person, but to yourself as well and regardless of the circumstances.

    -JC
  9. Territories Unknown
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    21 May '06 02:12
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Ok , I applaud your empathy but out of interest , do you feel that harming others is wrong in ANY context. Gandhi for example is quoted as saying " There are many causes I would gladly die for , but none for which I would kill" . What I am asking is are there conditions attached to your empathy or is your love for humanity unconditional? Or does your belief system mean you aspire to this love?
    Apparently ol' Gandhi never gave much thought to standing idly by while his wife and daughters were raped and mutilated. He was so silly, that way.
  10. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    21 May '06 03:061 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Before you say this is a rant, don't worry I know it is...

    God ain't easy. A lot of you guys go on about awkward questions and things that don't 'add up' ,.... always looking at what God should be doing or hasn't done , instead of what he has done....it's like you expect it to be plain sailing......don't you have a concept of spirituality being some .if you want them go back to nursery school...God ain't easy. GET USED TO IT.
    Try 20 years of solid church attendance, and reading the bible cover-to-cover more times than I can count.

    Before you lecture others on 'challenging preconceptions', why don't you try challenging your main one, namely, your assumption that God exists.
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    21 May '06 03:34
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Try 20 years of solid church attendance, and reading the bible cover-to-cover more times than I can count.

    Before you lecture others on 'challenging preconceptions', why don't you try challenging your main one, namely, your assumption that God exists.
    So what made you fall away?
  12. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    21 May '06 04:27
    Originally posted by Halitose
    [b]By what authority?
    presumably his own. Why do you feel the need to defer your morality to another? If an eleventh commandment popped up in the bible which told you to molest children, would you do it? Why?
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
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    21 May '06 10:39
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Try 20 years of solid church attendance, and reading the bible cover-to-cover more times than I can count.

    Before you lecture others on 'challenging preconceptions', why don't you try challenging your main one, namely, your assumption that God exists.
    To be fair , I did admit it was a rant from the start and thus an exaggeration in order to make a point or raise debate. We all make assumptions mate and I'm no different , it's part of life on a forum, you don't get to meet the people. You have no idea of the struggles I've gone through in my faith. So you have made an assumption yourself in concluding I have not challenged myself on this.

    Do you dispute that by looking for problems you are bound to find them?

    So what put you off God?
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    21 May '06 10:44
    Originally posted by Churlant
    . Of course there are situations in which this harm can be justified - self-defense,.

    -JC[/b]
    So here is an example of where morals informed by faith might be different ( not better neccessarily) from morals informed by basic statements or human abstract concepts. EG - Self defence - Remember "turn the other cheek"? ..or "Peter put away your sword"?

    What about pre-emptive defence (george bush etc) ?
  15. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    21 May '06 18:19
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    To be fair , I did admit it was a rant from the start and thus an exaggeration in order to make a point or raise debate. We all make assumptions mate and I'm no different , it's part of life on a forum, you don't get to meet the people. You have no idea of the struggles I've gone through in my faith. So you have made an assumption yourself in concludin ...[text shortened]... pute that by looking for problems you are bound to find them?

    So what put you off God?
    If you're really willing to challenge your preconception of God's existence, you should avoid dogmatic statements like, "GOD ISN'T EASY. GET USED TO IT."

    A book of such ambitious scope as the bible can hardly be read without encountering problems. Try reading the book of Job, for example.

    Ultimately, I stopped believing in God because the bible has too many logical contradictions and philosophical problems for my taste.
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