God and the Matrix

Originally posted by twhitehead
I took the Pill and got out of the matrix. Now I am athiest.

But now there are a whole lot more people offering pills of all sorts of colors (you for example) yet each one is claiming that the matrix is a simulation in a greater world. But each one has a different belief as to what that 'greater world' is and none has ever actually got out of the matri ...[text shortened]... go but I dont have any concrete evidence" then I think I'll stick with the matrix I know.

I took the Pill and got out of the matrix. Now I am athiest.WHITEY


Good for you!! You did take the Pill of sorts because you escaped what you were born into (like Neo) . The matrix you are thinking of was probably the religion you were born into. How do you know that the matrix you thought you got out of was the real matrix? These AI bots are darned clever. They can invent a matrix within the matrix itself so that you can think you have escaped something but infact you just fall back asleep into their clutches. The religion you escaped was probably a computer generated Morpheus who never really unplugged you properly.

Originally posted by knightmeister
How do you know that the matrix you thought you got out of was the real matrix?

The matrix isn't real or haven't you figured that out yet?

These AI bots are darned clever. They can invent a matrix within the matrix itself so that you can think you have escaped something but infact you just fall back asleep into their clutches. The religion you escaped was probably a computer generated Morpheus who never really unplugged you properly.
Once can never be sure, but I am at least sure that what you think is the 'real world' is only an illusion because it doesn't make any sense (even to you as you have repeatedly stated).

I have never had a problem with creationists who say that the world was made 20 years ago in such a way as to deceive us that it was billions of years old. One can never disprove such a claim. But I do take an issue with people who claim that they can prove that it was made 20 years ago and then proceed to tell obvious lies to support such a claim (such as Kelly who says that if you weren't there then you don't know it happened and that information becomes less accurate with age).

What I can do, is study the rules of the matrix I am in and compare them with peoples theoretical models of the matrix and the 'real world' and see whether there is a match. For example you say that the 'real world' has an identifiable effect on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The matrix [b]isn't real or haven't you figured that out yet?

These AI bots are darned clever. They can invent a matrix within the matrix itself so that you can think you have escaped something but infact you just fall back asleep into their clutches. The religion you escaped was probably a computer generated Morpheus who never really unplugged t on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this.

The matrix isn't real or haven't you figured that out yet? WHITEY

Oh , it's real alright as Neo found out by taking the pill. It just wasn't real in the sense that he thought it was. Didn't you see the rows of human batteries? He had been fooled by a pseudo reality.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The matrix [b]isn't real or haven't you figured that out yet?

These AI bots are darned clever. They can invent a matrix within the matrix itself so that you can think you have escaped something but infact you just fall back asleep into their clutches. The religion you escaped was probably a computer generated Morpheus who never really unplugged ...[text shortened]... t on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this.

But I do take an issue with people who claim that they can prove that it was made 20 years ago and then proceed to tell obvious lies to support such a claim WHITEY

So do I. Don't forget that in the matrix (the one in the film) there were no doubt churches and creationists spouting the same rubbish thinking that they were making Christianity more convincing by denying evolution.

One interesting parallel is that Neo takes the red pill without knowing the consequences. That's what we hear from a lot of xians - "just believe first, then trust God to work out the details".

Originally posted by twhitehead
The matrix [b]isn't real or haven't you figured that out yet?

These AI bots are darned clever. They can invent a matrix within the matrix itself so that you can think you have escaped something but infact you just fall back asleep into their clutches. The religion you escaped was probably a computer generated Morpheus who never really unplugged t on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this.

For example you say that the 'real world' has an identifiable effect on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this. WHITEY

What kind of evidence would you find interesting or worthy of examination in this area? One problem both compatabilists and libertarians have is that we can only live one timeline so in essence the results of determined actions and free actions look exactly the same. Whe it comes to human lives we have no repeatable control expereiment we can do.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The matrix [b]isn't real or haven't you figured that out yet?

These AI bots are darned clever. They can invent a matrix within the matrix itself so that you can think you have escaped something but infact you just fall back asleep into their clutches. The religion you escaped was probably a computer generated Morpheus who never really unplugged t on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this.

[/b]What I can do, is study the rules of the matrix I am in and compare them with peoples theoretical models of the matrix and the 'real world' and see whether there is a match. For example you say that the 'real world' has an identifiable effect on free will, but so far have been totally unable to provide any evidence for this.

How do you know that what you got from your study of the rules is correct? What if the robots deceived you to understand what you did understand?

Buy the way, in Quantum mechanics particles behaviour is not random at the atomic scale. It is just unpredictable.

Originally posted by ahosyney
How do you know that what you got from your study of the rules is correct? What if the robots deceived you to understand what you did understand?

I don't. The best I can ever do is stick with the parsimonious explanation. I still think that is better than people of faith who also can never know if what they believe is correct but also believe in an un-parsimonious explanation.
Another important factor to consider is: Does it matter if I am wrong. If I am destined to live out my life in the matrix then it is the matrix I need to know and not the 'real world'. In fact the matrix is the 'real world' as far as I am concerned. As long as the rules hold true I can use them, if they change one day then I will have to adapt but since I cannot predict that change, the best I can do is study them as they are now.

Buy the way, in Quantum mechanics particles behavior is not random at the atomic scale. It is just unpredictable.
Its a lot more complicated than that. Also the word 'random' to me means unpredictable.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't. The best I can ever do is stick with the parsimonious explanation. I still think that is better than people of faith who also can never know if what they believe is correct but also believe in an un-parsimonious explanation.
Another important factor to consider is: Does it matter if I am wrong. If I am destined to live out my life in the matrix ...[text shortened]...
Its a lot more complicated than that. Also the word 'random' to me means unpredictable.

So you and those people of faith are the same. It is just you live in a different Chambur that adopt to your brain.

Also the people of faith didn't got there faith from vain. They got it from some rules they find in the same matrix (I'm talking about the first people escaped the Matrix, they didn't have the Pill, they quit by their own mind). Don't you agree in that. We all make use of the same rules. Some of us believe they got a message from outside the matrix telling them what the real world is, and others refused to accept this message and stick themselves to the rules of the Matrix which they are not sure of them as well (They think they are sure, but they are not).

In the movie the rules of the Matrix could be broken by faith. The faith that you can break it (Of course after taking the pill).

Those who refused to believe remained to operate like batteries, helping their enemies to survive.
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Its a lot more complicated than that. Also the word 'random' to me means unpredictable.

I didn't stop reading since our discussion about this issue (Thank you for that). I think you missunderstand the whole concept of randomness in quantum mechanics. When I finish reading I will come back to you.

Originally posted by ahosyney
So you and those people of faith are the same. It is just you live in a different Chambur that adopt to your brain.

People of faith claim they know what the real world is but have not actually found a way to get out of the matrix. In fact most religions specifically forbid suicide.

I didn't stop reading since our discussion about this issue (Thank you for that). I think you missunderstand the whole concept of randomness in quantum mechanics. When I finish reading I will come back to you.
I don't think I do misunderstand it but I also don't claim to be an expert on quantum mechanics.
However when I say something is random I mean:
It has no known cause and it is unpredictable. I do not mean that it doesn't have a cause.
But in quantum mechanics as I said it is far more complicated. In quantum mechanics an if an objects position is not known then it is not 'random' but actually does not have a position or can be said to be filling all possible positions. This actually enables objects to interfere with themselves like waves - hence the well known 'wave nature' of light.

Originally posted by twhitehead
People of faith claim they know what the real world is but have not actually found a way to get out of the matrix. In fact most religions specifically forbid suicide.

[b]I didn't stop reading since our discussion about this issue (Thank you for that). I think you missunderstand the whole concept of randomness in quantum mechanics. When I finish reading s to interfere with themselves like waves - hence the well known 'wave nature' of light.

[/b]People of faith claim they know what the real world is but have not actually found a way to get out of the matrix. In fact most religions specifically forbid suicide.

You don't have to die to get out of the Matrix. No one of those who took the pill really died. The pill just give them the ability to see the real world without waiting to die. So your statement doesn't make sense.


However when I say something is random I mean:
It has no known cause and it is unpredictable. I do not mean that it doesn't have a cause.

Where did you get this definition from? Why random means has no known cause? This specific sentence that makes me believe that you miss something or making assumptions.



In quantum mechanics an if an objects position is not known then it is not 'random' but actually does not have a position or can be said to be filling all possible positions. This actually enables objects to interfere with themselves like waves - hence the well known 'wave nature' of light.

Again either me or you miss something. Quantum mechanics doesn't claim that a particle doesn't have a position. No , what it claims that at the atomic level we can't precisely specify the position (x) and momentum (px) of a specific particle. But we can give a possible range of (dx) for the position, and a range (dpx) for the momentum.

That doesn't mean that the particle occupies the whole region (dx, dpx), no, the particle actually in one position (x), and one momentum (px), but we can't specify them both at the same time.

What we can do using quantum mechanices we can specify one of them , and in this case the other will be totaly unknown.

And in all cases we can't say it doesn't have a cause. The particle is moving because it has energy.

Originally posted by ahosyney
You don't have to die to get out of the Matrix. No one of those who took the pill really died. The pill just give them the ability to see the real world without waiting to die. So your statement doesn't make sense.

They were able to get out of the matrix and did. You are still in the matrix. Unless you are claiming that your consciousness has made visits to heaven?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Where did you get this definition from? Why random means has no known cause? This specific sentence that makes me believe that you miss something or making assumptions.

According to the dictionary, random means "without definite aim, reason, or pattern". I interpret that to mean the cause is not known. It would be wrong to conclude that there was no cause although that is a possibility.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Again either me or you miss something. Quantum mechanics doesn't claim that a particle doesn't have a position.

You need to do a bit more reading.

Originally posted by twhitehead
According to the dictionary, random means "without definite aim, reason, or pattern". I interpret that to mean the cause is not known. It would be wrong to conclude that there was no cause although that is a possibility.

So do you believe in randomness or do you just think that something is called "random" only because we haven't figured out what causes it?