Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]"That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will b vers escape being utterly consumed (apollumi).

(More later...)

[/b]Interesting! Also interesting that these verses from 2nd Corinthians are again ones that we both might quote in support of our different positions. (You beat me to it, though! 🙂 )

I haven’t the time to do this justice, but a quick look shows an interesting verb structure:

________________________________

5:17 So surely (or if/whether) anyone in Christ a new creature/creation—the ancient has passed away [past/aorist tense]; Look! Have become [perfect tense] new!

5:18 Now the all/everything from/of God {who} reconciled [past/aorist] us to himself through/by means of Christ and entrusted [past/aorist] to us the ministry/service/mission/contribution of reconciliation:

5:19 how that God was/was-being [imperfect: continual or repeated past action] in Christ, world reconciling [present tense active] to himself; not reckoning [present tense] to them the wrongdoings of them, and placed [past/aorist] in us the word of the reconciliation.

___________________________________

Still, I like the translation you presented.

____________________________________

It is obvious: only the foundation laid by Christ will survive the fire of God's judgment. All other foundations will be consumed. Therefore, if a man has not believed in Jesus Christ in the earthly body and died in his sins, he will be utterly consumed by the fire of God's judgment.

Well, according to Paul, Christ is the foundation that Paul says he laid for the Corinthians; and he is speaking here particularly of factional disputes within the church. Nevertheless, Paul may also be talking generally.

In Luke 6:46-49, the distinction is between those who build their “house” on the foundation of what Christ says, as opposed to those who build their “house” on the ground with no foundation (those who only say, “Lord, lord” ). “When the river burst against it, immediately it fell, and great was the ruin (collapse or destruction: peigma, what has been split open and broken) of that house.”

I know you reject the “lord, lord” absent obedience/action. But there is also nothing in this passage to indicate that those who said “lord, lord” do not believe.

If it were otherwise, if faith were not necessary, then what is the purpose of sharing Christ's message, and why are Christian's so severely dealt with for failure to share Christ's message effectively or sincerely?

I suppose we disagree somewhat about the nature of the message—that is, the nature of reconciliation when and for whom and under what conditions.

I don’t necessarily disagree that faith is sooner or later necessary—for the very act of receiving ( 😉 ) what is given. But I think you are still making it a “law-bound” system; the law, rules, principles (nomos) have been changed, but that’s all. I have to grind on this a bit—because, unlike Luther, I see no reason to toss James out of the picture in favor of Paul...

NRS Romans 7:6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code* but in the new life of the Spirit.

* YLT “not in oldness of letter.”

NRS Ephesians 2:10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. 11 So then, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, called "the uncircumcision" by those who are called "the circumcision"-- a physical circumcision made in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. 15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.

—Yes, I think Paul is talking about the faithful here. 🙂

It appears that there is more than one Greek word translated as “obedience” or “obey.” I’ll have to take a look at them...

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Logically, for rejecting an eternal gift there is an eternal consequence. Unless you are disputing that Jesus isn't talking about 'eternal' life in John 3:16, but merely a long life ('age-during'😉 which will end at some point. In which case Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cover a believer's sins. But this would not be consistent with Romans 5: ...[text shortened]... e able to save us through penance, then 'Christ is dead in vain'.

Logically, for rejecting an eternal gift there is an eternal consequence. Unless you are disputing that Jesus isn't talking about 'eternal' life in John 3:16, but merely a long life ('age-during'😉 which will end at some point.

Well, I knew that shoe was going to drop! 🙂 The thing is that we have no choice but to sort out where and when aionios and the other aion words mean what.

Therefore, one can say with confidence that Christ means 'everlasting' and 'eternal' when He uses the word aionio, referring to a believer's inheritance: "And they (the wicked) will go away into eternal (aionio) punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal (aionio) life" (Matthew 25:46). Notice how aionio is used to refer to the destiny of unbelievers and the righteous. If the wicked are only punished for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an age. If believers will be in heaven forever, the wicked will be punished forever.

Now you are hitting me with my own “parallelism”! 🙂 Good!

But remember—and I’m going to have to go back over a lot of ground now (we’ve covered so much!)—that I don’t take the sheep and the goats as whole persons either. Which, I admit, generates the question of when I do and when I don’t.

So—I’m going to take a bit of a break to pull all the points of my position together, and see how well they hang together—‘cause I’m losing sight of that.

We haven’t covered all the scripture yet, I’m sure—but are there any points that we haven’t covered?

Maybe it’s been a long day, but I frankly am losing sight of the grace in your message—if now I have to both believe and strive even harder to be righteous than those who were under the old covenant. Or, if grace is extended only to the elect chosen from the beginning—why I should concern myself? (You do, I hope, recognize the sincerity, at least, with which I am pursuing this—despite some of our more fundamental theological differences.)

Now, as an old Lutheran, perhaps I have a tendency to emphasize grace over works—but where is the grace? God assumes human nature in the incarnation, dies (and is resurrected)—in order to...what? Simply to shore up the faith of those who were already elect? Am I expressing my question clearly?

One of the commandments—indeed the principal one; and it is one—is to love God and to love my “neighbor” as myself. We have both agreed that love cannot be coerced. How am I to love a God who may well condemn my beloved ones to an unquenchable fire? Does not God love them too? (Believe me, they are more lovable than I am...). Is God into “every man/woman for himself?”

For that matter, who did Jesus stand with—the righteous? Did he say, “I have come to call the righteous—or those who will become righteous in my name—to their reward?”

From another view: your position is quite tenable in this sense—I see no skandalon in it at all, unless you count my objection that it limits God as agape. But my skandalon is not on my own behalf!

Okay, got to go now my friend. Only this question: where is the grace?

As always, be well.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
P.S. I am thoroughly convinced of the position I hold concerning whether condemnation means 'forever' for those who reject Christ, and I don't believe, as God is my witness, I can make my case any better than I already have for that. What disagreements remain between us must remain for now concerning election and the eternal destiny of believers/unbeli ...[text shortened]... oubt we will touch upon our current discussion as we explore this new one. What do you say?

With the caveat in the question ending my prior post--I agree. And I know you are sincere and honest, and have no doubts on that score.

BTW, you've made a good case, even if we still disagree.

Originally posted by vistesd
Logically, for rejecting an eternal gift there is an eternal consequence. Unless you are disputing that Jesus isn't talking about 'eternal' life in John 3:16, but merely a long life ('age-during'😉 which will end at some point.

Well, I knew that shoe was going to drop! 🙂 The thing is that we have no choice but to sort out where and when aionios a o go now my friend. Only this question: where is the grace?

As always, be well.

Maybe it’s been a long day, but I frankly am losing sight of the grace in your message—if now I have to both believe and strive even harder to be righteous than those who were under the old covenant.

"But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!" (Matthew 5:20).

Jesus taught that outward obedience to the law is not enough. His teaching leaves no question that obedience to the whole law of God is impossible. For instance, not only are we not to murder our neighbor (the outward observance), we are not even to be angry with him (the inward observance). The old covenant stressed outward observances; the new covenant stresses inward observances (which Jesus outlines throughout Matthew 5). And 'because of the weakness of our sinful nature' (Romans 8:3) we find that observing God's demand for inward perfection to be impossible.

A man can no longer say, "I've obeyed every law of Moses, therefore I am right before God," as was the case in the OT. In the NT every evil imagination of the heart will be prosecuted. And "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10). The purpose of the Law being to reveal the 'exceeding sinfulness' of sin in ourselves, that we might repent and believe in Jesus Christ for deliverance: "And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t" (Romans 7:18).

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, 'With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible'" (Matthew 19:24-26).

Conviction of sin is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is He who calls us to repentance. Jesus, speaking of the Holy Spirit, said that, "when he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned" (John 16:8-11).

When a man repents he is given a new heart: "this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10). "It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation" (Galatians 6:15). "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

When a man is 'born-again' he is given a new nature. "True circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit" (Romans 2:29). "When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead" (Colossians 2:11-12).

The cry of the convicted heart goes something like this: "Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?" (Romans 7:24). And the cry of a forgiven heart goes something like this: "Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 7:25).

After being 'born-again' obedience to God's law becomes possible: "Because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit" (Romans 8:2-3). "Dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God" (Romans 8:12-14).

So, to answer your question: the law is necessary to convict us of sin, because the ability to obey the law is not in our nature. There is no striving to earn the Lord's favor after one is 'born-again'; all striving is 'through the power of the Spirit' henceforth.

Or, if grace is extended only to the elect chosen from the beginning—why I should concern myself? (You do, I hope, recognize the sincerity, at least, with which I am pursuing this—despite some of our more fundamental theological differences.)

Because, who is written in the Book of Life is knowledge we are not privy to. Only the Lamb is given the authority to open the Book of Life and see who is written therein. That's God's job. Knowledge that God has an elect is no excuse not to seek His kingdom.

What should be one's concern is whether the claims of the bible are true or not, and if they are true, to seek genuine repentance through prayer, and through repentance, the experience of the miracle of 'being born from above' in the Spirit through the power that raised Christ from the dead. All of which requires taking God at His word; that He means what He says, and that His promises are true and binding, ready to be claimed in good faith. A sincere heart is absolutely necessary in such an endeavor. All or nothing.

For me it was a radical movement in my spirit which I did not anticipate, which pushed me to forfeit all for the possibility that Jesus is real, and that He is exactly Who the Bible says He is. "If you search for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him" (Deuteronomy 4:29). "The Lord sees every heart and knows every plan and thought. If you seek him, you will find him. But if you forsake him, he will reject you forever. So take this seriously" (1 Chronicles 28:9-10). "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6).

Now, as an old Lutheran, perhaps I have a tendency to emphasize grace over works—but where is the grace? God assumes human nature in the incarnation, dies (and is resurrected)—in order to...what? Simply to shore up the faith of those who were already elect? Am I expressing my question clearly?

In a word, yes:

"Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand" (John 10:25-29).

One of the commandments—indeed the principal one; and it is one—is to love God and to love my “neighbor” as myself. We have both agreed that love cannot be coerced. How am I to love a God who may well condemn my beloved ones to an unquenchable fire? Does not God love them too? (Believe me, they are more lovable than I am...). Is God into “every man/woman for himself?”

In a word, yes:

"If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).

Regarding love for God, it is a supernatural love, the result of grace poured out upon the believer through the Holy Spirit, not a natural human emotion with partiality:

"O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them" (John 17:25-26).

"God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us" (Romans 5:5).

"If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed" (1 Corinthians 16:21-23).

"The fruit of the Spirit is love" (Galatians 5:22).

"Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God" (Ephesians 3:17-19).

"May the Lord lead your hearts into a full understanding and expression of the love of God and the patient endurance that comes from Christ" (2 Thessalonians 3:5).

For that matter, who did Jesus stand with—the righteous? Did he say, “I have come to call the righteous—or those who will become righteous in my name—to their reward?”

Only God is righteous:

"No man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith" (Galatians 3:11).

He declares sinners righteous who live by faith.

Only this question: where is the grace?

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Maybe it’s been a long day, but I frankly am losing sight of the grace in your message—if now I have to both believe and strive even harder to be righteous than those who were under the old covenant.

"But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never ente ...[text shortened]... s" (Romans 3:24).[/b]

Knowledge that God has an elect is no excuse not to seek His kingdom.

The kingdom is inside you; just as is the logos; just as is the pneuma; just as is ho Christos.

No, I don’t think God is into “every man for himself”—but one will love others as one love’s oneself. What you have to give is, in the end, who you are—everything else is a (self- ) deception that people will sooner or later see through. If you abide in love, you will share love—and you will abide in God, and in God’s holiness which is not distinct from God’s agape. As Jesus’ older contemporary, Rabbi Hillel put it: “If I am not for myself, who will be? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?”

The kingdom begins now—and now again—and now again... It is not elsewhere. It is not only after physical death.

____________________________

Okay, that is my closing statement. I think you are correct in that we have covered all the points.

Got to spend some time this weekend mucking out the goat-stall... 🙂