1. Hmmm . . .
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    06 Apr '07 15:07
    There has been some talk here recently about whether or not God* can fail—

    Can God’s “plan for salvation” (however you see that) in the end fail? What would constitute a failure?

    There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be saved.

    (2) All humans will ultimately be saved (albeit, perhaps, with a healing spell in hell—ala such as St. Gregory of Nyssa).

    If God desires salvation for all humankind, but intervening factors (e.g., free will, human wickedness, original guilt, etc.) operate to frustrate that desire, then God—even through becoming human and dying as such—will have failed to achieve what he wills. Whether you say shame on God, or shame on Satan, or shame on us doesn’t matter.

    If God does not desire the salvation of all humankind, then God created beings in such a way that he knows they will eventually be in a state of eternal torment (if that is your vision of hell).

    * Referencing the famous 3-O super-being God here; not every notion of God falls into this box...
  2. Donationrwingett
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    06 Apr '07 18:46
    Originally posted by vistesd
    There has been some talk here recently about whether or not God* can fail—

    Can God’s “plan for salvation” (however you see that) in the end fail? What would constitute a failure?

    There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be sav ...[text shortened]... Referencing the famous 3-O super-being God here; not every notion of God falls into this box...
    Healing spell...I like it. Cure 1D6 points of damage. One wonders if the people in hell failed their saving throw on a 20 sided dice. But of course it was god who established what a failing roll would be.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    06 Apr '07 20:32
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Healing spell...I like it. Cure 1D6 points of damage. One wonders if the people in hell failed their saving throw on a 20 sided dice. But of course it was god who established what a failing roll would be.
    I just wanted to keep it within the general Christian paradigm here, not arguing against theism (or Christian theism) per se, but some of the 3-O views commonly put forth, including the justness of an eternal hell.
  4. Joined
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    06 Apr '07 22:37
    Originally posted by vistesd
    There has been some talk here recently about whether or not God* can fail—

    Can God’s “plan for salvation” (however you see that) in the end fail? What would constitute a failure?

    There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be sav ...[text shortened]... Referencing the famous 3-O super-being God here; not every notion of God falls into this box...
    It is impossible for God to fail, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

    God has already successfully provided a complete salvation for all who will believe.

    The bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of any man, and it is God's will that all men be saved.

    At one point God had expressed sorrow for having created man, (because the thoughts of his (mans) heart was only evil continually) but I doubt that God experiences frustration. God's will is unstoppable, and in the end all things will be made right.

    Good thread. I wish I had more time to develop a better reply.
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    06 Apr '07 22:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    It is impossible for God to fail, otherwise he wouldn't be God.

    God has already successfully provided a complete salvation for all who will believe.

    The bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of any man, and it is God's will that all men be saved.

    At one point God had expressed sorrow for having created man, (because the thoughts of his ...[text shortened]... things will be made right.

    Good thread. I wish I had more time to develop a better reply.
    God has already successfully provided a complete salvation for all who will believe.

    The bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of any man, and it is God's will that all men be saved.


    The first statement above seems to imply that not everyone will be saved, and the second says that God wants everyone to be saved. Wouldn't this be a failure of God's plan for salvation?
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    07 Apr '07 03:44
    Originally posted by GregM
    [b]God has already successfully provided a complete salvation for all who will believe.

    The bible says that God takes no pleasure in the death of any man, and it is God's will that all men be saved.


    The first statement above seems to imply that not everyone will be saved, and the second says that God wants everyone to be saved. Wouldn't this be a failure of God's plan for salvation?[/b]
    Something someone said to me a long time ago is that God is a perfect gentleman. He will never force anyone against their will.
    The free gift of eternal life is being offered to anyone that will simply reach out and take it. But if it is refused, then God will not violate a man's will!

    Give this mind set a try; It is the failure of man to acknowledge God that prevents man from having fellowship with God.
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    07 Apr '07 05:22
    Originally posted by vistesd
    There has been some talk here recently about whether or not God* can fail—

    Can God’s “plan for salvation” (however you see that) in the end fail? What would constitute a failure?

    There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be sav ...[text shortened]... Referencing the famous 3-O super-being God here; not every notion of God falls into this box...
    So if I have a child and that child goes terribly awry am I a failure? Perhaps it could point to some personal failures of mine as a parent by not necessarily so. I know of a few examples where children have gone down the wrong road in life, so to speak, and it was not due to the fault of the parent in any way. I know, I know, I am not all powerful and all knowing as God is so I could manipulate that child into never failing. However, if I did that where is free will? If I were capable of taking my child's free will away and forcing him or her to never go awry I would not do it!
  8. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    07 Apr '07 05:39
    Originally posted by whodey
    So if I have a child and that child goes terribly awry am I a failure? Perhaps it could point to some personal failures of mine as a parent by not necessarily so. I know of a few examples where children have gone down the wrong road in life, so to speak, and it was not due to the fault of the parent in any way. I know, I know, I am not all powerful and all ...[text shortened]... of taking my child's free will away and forcing him or her to never go awry I would not do it!
    You are not omniscient or omnipotent. Please PLEASE try to remember that the next time you reel out this mindless drivel.
  9. Hmmm . . .
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    07 Apr '07 06:05
    Originally posted by whodey
    So if I have a child and that child goes terribly awry am I a failure? Perhaps it could point to some personal failures of mine as a parent by not necessarily so. I know of a few examples where children have gone down the wrong road in life, so to speak, and it was not due to the fault of the parent in any way. I know, I know, I am not all powerful and all ...[text shortened]... of taking my child's free will away and forcing him or her to never go awry I would not do it!
    You might be; as you say, it is circumstantial. (And, as Scotty notes, our abilities here do not seem to be the same as those assigned to the 3-O God).

    I have three grown children with children of their own—and lots of failures as a parent (which was not my particular skill, apparently; that is something that I have had to own up to). Now, let’s look at it the other way: I am happy if, in their lives, they have done better in spite of whatever shortcomings I had as a parent. Today, my only interest is in how well they live their lives—for themselves—regardless of how they see my abilities as a parent when they were growing up (and I seem to have mixed reviews on that); I am glad when they overcome my failures as a parent. And if they want to blame me, that’s fine (as long as it is not self-limiting for them). I would rather have them live well than love me. That is because I love them. And that, when I am able, is what I attempt to give them.

    My children are now adults. And, as such, they are self-responsible. But I never really viewed them as being responsible to me. After all, I was the parent. It was my job to care for them, not the other way around.
  10. CA, USA
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    07 Apr '07 08:18
    **disclaimer** .. My ultimate answer is .. I don't know. What follows is only my feeble attempt to answer the big question.

    First, I don't think God can fail .. if He exists.

    Man, on the other hand, fails almost all the time.

    What sets man apart from animals is the ability to reason, and that, IMO is where our free will comes from.
    We're "mimi" Gods while we walk the Earth, with the ability .. indeed, the curse of having to make the decisions that shape our lives.
    Self-awareness, ego and desire are obsticles along lifes path.

    Now i'll try the either/or question:
    ..........................
    "There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be saved.

    (2) All humans will ultimately be saved (albeit, perhaps, with a healing spell in hell—ala such as St. Gregory of Nyssa)."
    ...................................

    (1) That's possible, but for it to be true God would have to be a liar.
    I think being human is what makes you and me elegible to be "saved"; being human is also what makes us suseptible to failure.
    That's what I think God wants .. us to Choose Him, the free will is what gives us the option.

    (2) I don't know .. all is Maya

    In a big sense, we're designed to fail. Without experence, knowledge and maturity we can't succeed IMO
  11. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    07 Apr '07 09:02
    Originally posted by jammer
    **disclaimer** .. My ultimate answer is .. I don't know. What follows is only my feeble attempt to answer the big question.

    First, I don't think God can fail .. if He exists.
    Actually, I appreciate this answer. It's very different to many others, in that you acknowledge that it's merely your opinion, and not an incontrovertible fact, as many in this forum would have you believe their answers are.
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    07 Apr '07 14:56
    Originally posted by jammer
    **disclaimer** .. My ultimate answer is .. I don't know. What follows is only my feeble attempt to answer the big question.

    First, I don't think God can fail .. if He exists.

    Man, on the other hand, fails almost all the time.

    What sets man apart from animals is the ability to reason, and that, IMO is where our free will comes from.
    We're "mimi" Gods ...[text shortened]... designed to fail. Without experence, knowledge and maturity we can't succeed IMO
    I need to think about that “liar” part if (1) is the case; certainly you’re right in terms of the various “scriptural revelations”, at least as I read them. I think it certainly puts some element of capriciousness and perhaps incoherence into the mind of God, if not cruelty.

    Yes: “maya” and “I don’t know” are sometimes the most reasonable answers—for religious and non-religious folks both; I don’t think that such an “I don’t know” shows that one is somehow a “slacker” with regard to their religious expression... I have heard the most deeply religious people that I have known utter that “I don’t know...” (and be criticized for it by their fellow religionists).
  13. Donationkirksey957
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    07 Apr '07 15:26
    Originally posted by vistesd
    There has been some talk here recently about whether or not God* can fail—

    Can God’s “plan for salvation” (however you see that) in the end fail? What would constitute a failure?

    There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be sav ...[text shortened]... Referencing the famous 3-O super-being God here; not every notion of God falls into this box...
    I had to sleep on this post as I wasn't quite sure how to respond. My struggle with it is that it was posed as a "logical" kind of question. For me it is impossible to get around this question without some discussion of the meaning of "Good" Friday. There is no way to get around the fact that Good Friday was failure. I know some will say that "hey, there is Easter right around the corner and death was defeated once and for all." There is still the problem of Jesus dying on the cross.

    The answer to your question is a theological one. The cross stands as God participating in our failures, and when I say that I mean suffering in our failures. Let me give an example. I heard the most unusual Good Friday sermon last night. It was on the pain of Mary at the foot of the cross and what it meant for a woman to lose a son, lose a future, lose her care in the future, and all the feeling that may have come her way. This female priest talked about her own divorce in the past 3 months and what this has meant to her in terms of having a 5 year old kid. She cried throughout most of the sermon.

    I think failure is best understood in the context of relationships. It is there that the healing takes place. The failure of the cross is no doubt a failure, but at least for this particular priest it became a point of relationship beyond just reading about an account of failure.
  14. Hmmm . . .
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    07 Apr '07 15:451 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I had to sleep on this post as I wasn't quite sure how to respond. My struggle with it is that it was posed as a "logical" kind of question. For me it is impossible to get around this question without some discussion of the meaning of "Good" Friday. There is no way to get around the fact that Good Friday was failure. I know some will say that "hey, t priest it became a point of relationship beyond just reading about an account of failure.
    That is beautiful. I just read it aloud to my wife. I am glad you slept on it.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    07 Apr '07 16:361 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    There has been some talk here recently about whether or not God* can fail—

    Can God’s “plan for salvation” (however you see that) in the end fail? What would constitute a failure?

    There seem to me to be only two ways in which God could be considered not to fail:

    (1) God from the beginning did not want (and does not want) all humans to be sav ...[text shortened]... Referencing the famous 3-O super-being God here; not every notion of God falls into this box...
    So you are of the opinion that God will always get His way, or that
    God could always get His way? Love since God is Love must God force
    His views and desires upon all things all the time? This is important,
    because if you think it must happen, than we lose all ability to choose
    for ourselves anything at all. We can talk about Hell and Love, but
    right now, choice and salvation is the topic.
    Kelly
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