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Genesis 22:17 reads, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies."
"There are many religions practiced around the world. However, there are few having millions of followers. Two of largest religions in the world based on the number of members are Christianity and Islam. These two faiths are closely related and are members of a larger religious group known as the Abrahamic Religions. Abrahamic religions are the religions which are based on an ancient Israelite religious figure known as Abraham." --- https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-are-the-abrahamic-religions.html
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@pettytalk saidThese two faiths are closely related and are members of a larger religious group known as the Abrahamic Religions. Abrahamic religions are the religions which are based on an ancient Israelite religious figure known as Abraham.
Genesis 22:17 reads, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies."
"There are many religions practiced around the world. However, there are few having millions of followers. Two of largest religions in the world based on the num ...[text shortened]... as.com/articles/what-are-the-abrahamic-religions.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89yFFKhp25c
OK - So why are you telling us this?
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@mchill saidI was not telling, I was merely asking.
These two faiths are closely related and are members of a larger religious group known as the Abrahamic Religions. Abrahamic religions are the religions which are based on an ancient Israelite religious figure known as Abraham.
OK - So why are you telling us this?
If God promised to make Abraham the father of a nation (descendants), which would eventually be as numerous as the number of stars in the heavens and as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea, would you say that the promise has been met? If the nation of Israel, which is tiny, represents the descendants of Father Abraham, clearly the analogy is not appropriate.
However, if we consider the analogy as being a religious one, then perhaps God's promise takes on a different meaning. It may be said that from Abraham, we do have the majority of the world's population being his descendants (religiously).
A recent estimate gives the total number of followers of the combined Abrahamic religions to be approximately 4.3 billion.
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@pettytalk saidDo you class yourself as a Christian PettyTalk?
I was not telling, I was merely asking.
If God promised to make Abraham the father of a nation (descendants), which would eventually be as numerous as the number of stars in the heavens and as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea, would you say that the promise has been met? If the nation of Israel, which is tiny, represents the descendants of Father Abraham, clear ...[text shortened]... s the total number of followers of the combined Abrahamic religions to be approximately 4.3 billion.
@pettytalk saidIf God promised to make Abraham the father of a nation (descendants), which would eventually be as numerous as the number of stars in the heavens and as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea, would you say that the promise has been met?
I was not telling, I was merely asking.
If God promised to make Abraham the father of a nation (descendants), which would eventually be as numerous as the number of stars in the heavens and as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea, would you say that the promise has been met? If the nation of Israel, which is tiny, represents the descendants of Father Abraham, clear ...[text shortened]... s the total number of followers of the combined Abrahamic religions to be approximately 4.3 billion.
That depends on how you look at it. 2 things to consider: 1. If we add up all the descendants of Abraham, both living and dead, that would be quite a big number, and 2. Human history is not over, we don't know how many more there will be.
God has kept his promise to Abraham? Personally, I think the jury is still out on that one - - but I wouldn't bet against it.
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@mchill saidWell, it looks like you are not considering numbers equally. If you are going to include all the dead for Abraham's descendants, you must also add up all the dead descendants of those not belonging to Abraham. If you do that, it's still the same ratio. Adding up on equal terms still has a very tiny nation for Abraham's physical descendants, dead or alive.
If God promised to make Abraham the father of a nation (descendants), which would eventually be as numerous as the number of stars in the heavens and as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea, would you say that the promise has been met?
That depends on how you look at it. 2 things to consider: 1. If we add up all the descendants of Abraham, both living and dead, th ...[text shortened]... to Abraham? Personally, I think the jury is still out on that one - - but I wouldn't bet against it.
And as far as it's not over yet, how many more thousands and thousands of years do you estimate that it will it take for Abraham's physical descendants to be in number as the number of stars in the heavens? Which brings out another question. Will Human history, and the promise of Christ's return, be over before Abraham's descendants get to be as numerous as the stars? Or has that promise to be fulfilled first, before Christ returns? I mean, Christ's return (Second Advent) is just as much a promise as the promise made to Abraham, right?
Before placing bets, let's bring the jury back in court and pose those alternative questions to them, and then make them count the numbers equally.
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@PettyTalk saidBefore placing bets, let's bring the jury back in court and pose those alternative questions to them, and then make them count the numbers equally.
Well, it looks like you are not considering numbers equally. If you are going to include all the dead for Abraham's descendants, you must also add up all the dead descendants of those not belonging to Abraham. If you do that, it's still the same ratio. Adding up on equal terms still has a very tiny nation for Abraham's physical descendants, dead or alive.
And as far as ...[text shortened]... in court and pose those alternative questions to them, and then make them count the numbers equally.
Clever response, but I'm not going to take the bait. We have no idea if God was speaking to the decedents of Abraham in terms of factual numbers or in some indirect or cryptic manner (which was not unusual) because of this, I stand by my original answer.
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@mchill saidApparently, the response was not clever enough to elicit a clear answer from you; instead, you provided a cryptic one.
Before placing bets, let's bring the jury back in court and pose those alternative questions to them, and then make them count the numbers equally.
Clever response, but I'm not going to take the bait. We have no idea if God was speaking to the decedents of Abraham in terms of factual numbers or in some indirect or cryptic manner (which was not unusual) because of this, I stand by my original answer.
How many passages in the Bible are cryptic? And who holds the key to deciphering God's cryptic word?
Common, mchill, God's promise to Abraham was clear enough, although not explicit in terms of numbers. We also have God doubling down, hinting that He kept His promise to Abraham, which is found in Deuteronomy 1:10: "The Lord your God has increased your numbers so that today you are as numerous as the stars in the sky."
Moses was commanded by God to take a census, and we have the specific total given in Numbers 1:46: "The total number was 603,550." This figure may have been an approximate number of stars believed to be in the night sky by most of the ancients, who also believed the universe was finite. Therefore, the promise was deemed met, as far as the number of stars.
However, I don't recall the ancients attempting to count the number of grains of sand on any particular seashore. An all-knowing God would know just how many stars there are in the heavens, and the number of all the grains of sand on the seashore and in the seas. But if God had given that kind of precise information to be recorded in the Bible, no one would be an atheist with what we have come to know about the physical universe. And that would spoil God's plan for the element of surprise--the last act with the ending.
Contrary to your assumption, I was not baiting you, nor anyone else, as I'm inquiring about others' opinions on the question posed in this thread. I'm only seeking exchanges of ideas and opinions, to weigh my own fuzzy opinions and ideas.
How many passages in the Bible are cryptic?
I'm supposed to search every page of the bible, and give you an accounting of each passage that may be cryptic? I'll admit that would be an interesting exercise, but I may have 1 or 2 other things to do right now i.e. running my biz and battling an open dual opponent who is at least as good (if not) better than me. Sorry, but that's not going to happen.
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@PettyTalk saidBillions = billions.
Well, it looks like you are not considering numbers equally. If you are going to include all the dead for Abraham's descendants, you must also add up all the dead descendants of those not belonging to Abraham. If you do that, it's still the same ratio. Adding up on equal terms still has a very tiny nation for Abraham's physical descendants, dead or alive.
And as far as ...[text shortened]... in court and pose those alternative questions to them, and then make them count the numbers equally.
Close enough, especially for the old testament.
If you hold God to exact numbers, how much more harshly will he judge you?
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@Suzianne saidThey say that "numbers don’t lie, but sometimes our brains do."
Billions = billions.
Close enough, especially for the old testament.
If you hold God to exact numbers, how much more harshly will he judge you?
Have you carefully followed the brief exchange in this thread? You are harshly judging me on misconstrued facts, figures, and numbers.
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God has made the Israelites like the stars of the heaven:
"the Lord your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude." Deut 1:10
Why are the not like that right now? Because of their sins. God says that if they don't follow his law, then:
"If you will not be careful to perform the words of this Torah that are written in this Book, to fear this honored and awesome Name; Y-H-W-H your G.d, then The Lord will make extra ordinary your blows and the blows of your offspring; great and faithful blows, and evil and faithful illnesses. He will bring back upon you all the sufferings of Egypt, of which you were terrified, and they will cleave to you. Even any illness and every blow that is not written in this Book of Torah, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. You will be left few in number, instead having been like the stars of heaven in abundance, for you will not have hearkened to the voice of the Lord your God. "
Deut 28
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@Carnivorum saidPlease explain yourself.
God has made the Israelites like the stars of the heaven:
"the Lord your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude." Deut 1:10
Why are the not like that right now? Because of their sins. God says that if they don't follow his law, then:
"If you will not be careful to perform the words of this Torah that are w ...[text shortened]... f heaven in abundance, for you will not have hearkened to the voice of the Lord your God. "
Deut 28
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@Carnivorum saidFrom Isaiah 30
No explanation needed. It is clear as day.
For they are a rebellious people,
lying children,
children unwilling to hear
the instruction of the Lord;
who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right;
speak to us smooth things,
prophesy illusions,
leave the way, turn aside from the path,
let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”