1. Joined
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    23 Jul '15 15:07
    I do not remember of any instance in the bible where god appeared in person before someone and asked him or her to kill in his name.

    It was always an angel, a prophet, a priest.
    During the invasion of canaan it was always through whatever levite was in charge that we hear of "go there, kill everyone, loot and pillage and rape"

    and we hear of these killings again not from god, but from the bible, which was put together by a council of christian priests who gathered a bunch of scrolls handed down from the greeks and israelites who often passed them them along the years, sometimes orally, about a guy who lived in a nomadic tribe with no country who once wrote that he received visions from God telling him to go kill people and get (steal) their land because they are evil and God wants them dead, but cannot kill them himself.

    it sounds stupid because it is.
  2. Cape Town
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    23 Jul '15 16:12
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I do not remember of any instance in the bible where god appeared in person before someone and asked him or her to kill in his name.

    It was always an angel, a prophet, a priest.
    In the OT, seeing God could kill you.

    I am curious: if it said in the Bible that God did appear and tell people to kill in his name, how would any of the rest of your post change?
  3. Cape Town
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    23 Jul '15 16:14
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    ....who often passed them them along the years, sometimes orally,.....
    I don't think they were ever passed on orally.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Jul '15 16:23
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I do not remember of any instance in the bible where god appeared in person before someone and asked him or her to kill in his name.

    It was always an angel, a prophet, a priest.
    During the invasion of canaan it was always through whatever levite was in charge that we hear of "go there, kill everyone, loot and pillage and rape"

    and we hear of these ...[text shortened]... e evil and God wants them dead, but cannot kill them himself.

    it sounds stupid because it is.
    I just told you about Abram in Genesis and told you to read it again. Don't be an ignorant idiot by not reading it.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    23 Jul '15 19:493 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I do not remember of any instance in the bible where god appeared in person before someone and asked him or her to kill in his name.

    It was always an angel, a prophet, a priest.
    During the invasion of canaan it was always through whatever levite was in charge that we hear of "go there, kill everyone, loot and pillage and rape"

    and we hear of these ...[text shortened]... e evil and God wants them dead, but cannot kill them himself.

    it sounds stupid because it is.
    You have done a lot of loud demonstrating that you recognize when something is not morally right. But in your atheistic worldview why does an authoritative standard for righteousness exist in the first place?

    I think you are smuggling into your atheist philosophy an objective moral standard as a yardstick against which you condemn actions as unrighteous. You're smuggling in that ultimate yardstick from a Christian worldview.

    As a Christian I admit that especially in the Old Testament there are some difficult to explain actions God took. But in your philosophy if where are you getting this prescribed right moral behavior from other than your personal preference?

    If we humans are just evolved germs of a process of no purpose, why is your vested interest in your species makes killing people more objectively unrighteous than killing a garbage pale full of maggots with pesticide ?

    What endows you with the right to favor your human species over insects or rats ? You're practicing Speciesism. Other than your preference and Species self interest what 's wrong with people being killed more than cockroaches?
  6. Joined
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    23 Jul '15 21:10
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't think they were ever passed on orally.
    ancient tribes preserved their culture only through writing? is that what you are saying?
  7. Joined
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    23 Jul '15 21:13
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I just told you about Abram in Genesis and told you to read it again. Don't be an ignorant idiot by not reading it.
    was referring to the large scale killings.

    not that one time when god was curious to see just how psychotic abe was.
    turned out the answer was very.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    23 Jul '15 21:213 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    was referring to the large scale killings.

    not that one time when god was curious to see just how psychotic abe was.
    turned out the answer was very.
    Clarify your presuppositions. As an Atheist you prescribe Right morality according to what grand objective standard ?

    If we humans are just evolved germs of a process of no purpose, why is your vested interest in your species make killing people more objectively unrighteous than killing a garbage pale full of maggots with pesticide ?

    What endows you with the right to favor your human species over insects or rats ? You're practicing Speciesism. Other than your preference and Species self interest what 's wrong with people being killed more than cockroaches?
  9. Joined
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    23 Jul '15 21:27
    Originally posted by sonship
    You have done a lot of loud demonstrating that you recognize when something is not morally right. But in your atheistic worldview why does an authoritative standard for righteousness exist in the first place?

    I think you are smuggling into your atheist philosophy an objective moral standard as a yardstick against which you condemn actions as unrighteous. ...[text shortened]... eference and Species self interest what 's wrong with people being killed more than cockroaches?
    "But in your atheistic worldview "
    christian. i am christian.

    "why does an authoritative standard for righteousness exist in the first place? "
    yes, the old "without god there is no righteousness" crap. i am a christian and i find this utterly repulsive. atheists cannot be righteous? muslims cannot be righteous?

    humans do good to feel good about themselves, to build a better society, because they recognize the need to work together. and many times, from an actual desire to help people just because. doing good because god tells you to is a reason like any other an is actually one of the most selfish reasons.


    "where are you getting this prescribed right moral behavior from other than your personal preference? "
    we all make a personal choice when it comes to morality. my personal preference is that entire civilizations shouldn't be put to the sword. it is sad that you only "admit there are some difficult to explain" issues in the OT. since when does genocide have to be explained? suppose anyone else than god committed those acts, would you have trouble explaining them then?


    " If we humans are just evolved germs of a process of no purpose, why is your vested interest in your species makes killing people more objectively unrighteous than killing a garbage pale full of maggots with pesticide ? "
    i'm a human, i empathize with humans. i belong to the human society. i feel good about helping other humans. i see the need to help other humans so i can be helped in return. my health and other humans health is threatened by that garbage pale, i will get rid of it even if it means killing the maggots but i wouldn't kill them otherwise.

    "What endows you with the right to favor your human species over insects or rats ?"
    being a human myself and not being a psychopath.


    "Other than your preference and Species self interest what 's wrong with people being killed more than cockroaches?"
    can you, with a straight face, post this absolutely repulsive sentence and still whine that i don't understand God's actions?
  10. Joined
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    23 Jul '15 21:31
    Originally posted by sonship
    Clarify your presuppositions. As an Atheist you prescribe Right morality according to what grand objective standard ?

    If we humans are just evolved germs of a process of no purpose, why is your vested interest in your species make killing people more objectively unrighteous than killing a garbage pale full of maggots with pesticide ?

    What end ...[text shortened]... and Species self interest what 's wrong with people being killed more than cockroaches?
    "As an Atheist you prescribe Right morality according to what grand objective standard ? "
    i am a christian. i made my own morality, influenced by my education and the society around me. i hold ideals that common to most of the humans.

    jesus happened to hold the same ideals i do. i found it comforting to follow him. i was not a blank slate before i became christian. i became christian precisely because my morality coincided with jesus', not so i can adopt his morality.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    23 Jul '15 23:032 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    i am a christian. i made my own morality, influenced by my education and the society around me. i hold ideals that common to most of the humans.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do you mean something like you agee in "The Golden Rule" perhaps. So you are a Christian because of that?

    The way you talk about God Whom Jesus called "My Father" is very destructive, insulting towards God. Can you point out Jesus speaking about the God in the Old Testament in the manner that you have written here?

    jesus happened to hold the same ideals i do.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Then you can show me where Jesus goes on and on and on about how murderous and unjust His Father was in the Old Testament?

    Site your examples of Jesus agreeing with you in the New Testament.


    i found it comforting to follow him.

    ------------------------------------------------

    You're going to show me how you "follow" Jesus in your utter disgust and contemptuous condemnation of God in the books of Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

    Justify that you are following Jesus to speak about God in this way.


    i was not a blank slate before i became christian. i became christian precisely because my morality coincided with jesus', not so i can adopt his morality.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In the morality of Jesus He referred to God as Righteous Father

    "Righteous Father, though the world has not known You, yet I have known You, and these have known that You have sent Me." (John 17:15)


    You have been breathing out your hatred for His Father.
    You should go to Jesus Christ some evening in prayer and have a long honest talk with Him about how YOUR view of His Father is of a God unrighteous Whom you seek to blaspheme in public each chance you get.

    Don't be annoyed with me that I suggest that you pray to the Lord Jesus. You said you follow Jesus. And Jesus said to His followers that He was with them until the consummation of the age.

    " ... And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20b)


    When you stand before this One whom you say you follow, what will you tell Him about the way you portrayed God in public before the world when you spoke of the Old Testament ?
  12. Joined
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    24 Jul '15 00:21
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] i am a christian. i made my own morality, influenced by my education and the society around me. i hold ideals that common to most of the humans.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do you mean something like you agee in "The Golden Rule" perhaps. So you are a Christian because of that?

    The wa ...[text shortened]... about the way you portrayed God in public before the world when you spoke of the Old Testament ?[/b]
    "The way you talk about God Whom Jesus called "My Father" is very destructive, insulting towards God."
    i talk that way about the fictional monster portrayed in the OT. the real God is not that guy.


    "Can you point out Jesus speaking about the God in the Old Testament in the manner that you have written here?"
    jesus was a diplomat. he had a job to do, to teach. he didn't specifically said how much of a monster the OT God character was, he just kindly overruled most of the laws supposedly given by God in the OT.


    "Site your examples of Jesus agreeing with you in the New Testament. "
    stopping the stoning of the woman.
    turn the other cheek instead of "eye for an eye".
    not telling anyone "those guys are idol worshippers", kill them.

    "Justify that you are following Jesus to speak about God in this way."
    by following jesus, one must be repulsed by the killings done in his name, both fictional and real. i find the genocide of the canaanites (fictional) just as repulsive as the massacres done by the crusades in the middle ages, again supposedly at the command of god.


    "Righteous Father, though the world has not known You"
    translation: these asholes have not known the real you but constructed a false god to worship. i have been sent on earth to tell them about the real you.

    "Don't be annoyed with me that I suggest that you pray to the Lord Jesus. "
    which really means "i don't really have any arguments to support my position but you must accept it anyway"


    "You said you follow Jesus. And Jesus said to His followers that He was with them until the consummation of the age."
    i agree. still doesn't say the genocide of the canaanites is righteous.

    "When you stand before this One whom you say you follow, what will you tell Him about the way you portrayed God in public before the world when you spoke of the Old Testament ?"
    i will say "hey, jesus, have you seen those nutjobs who, in the 21st century, mere decades after the Holocaust, think the genocide of the canaanites was righteous and was done by YOU? i know, right? the God who said love thy enemies, commanding someone to kill all the women and children of a nation. Ludicrous. Nevermind them, how've you been?"
  13. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jul '15 10:23
    The pagan tribes in Canaan represent the various aspects of the sinner's natural life. The natural life hinders the growth and spread of the divine life of Christ. Godd's purpose is to saturate the believer with the life of Christ in the personality.

    God will drive out the fallen natural man in the Christian. But this depends on two matters. It depends upon the believer's growth, on ncrease, reproduction, and multiplication.

    That means the more we grow spiritually the more the Holy Spirit assists us to drive out the natural life that the life of Christ may spread in our personalities.

    Secondly, God's driving out of the natural life (signified by the pagan tribes in Canaan), depends upon the Christians taking the initiative. As the Israeelites had to take the initiative to drive out the pagan tribes, the Christian must not be passive but cooperate with Christ to allow Christ to drive out the natural life.

    In Exodus 23:29 God indicates the He would do the driving out of the tribes before Israel. But in verse 31 God says the Israelites with drive the tribes out from before them.

    In New Testament terms this means God is working in us both the willing and the operating for His good will (Phil.2:12,13)

    God operates in us and we CO-operate with God. He is driving out the natural life and spreading Jesus Christ the "life giving Spirit into our personalities.

    " ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12b,13)
  14. Joined
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    24 Jul '15 10:47
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I do not remember of any instance in the bible where god appeared in person before someone and asked him or her to kill in his name.

    It was always an angel, a prophet, a priest.
    During the invasion of canaan it was always through whatever levite was in charge that we hear of "go there, kill everyone, loot and pillage and rape"

    and we hear of these ...[text shortened]... e evil and God wants them dead, but cannot kill them himself.

    it sounds stupid because it is.
    So you are saying all these stories are real now?

    Interesting.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    24 Jul '15 11:022 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "The way you talk about God Whom Jesus called [b]"My Father" is very destructive, insulting towards God."
    i talk that way about the fictional monster portrayed in the OT. the real God is not that guy.


    "Can you point out Jesus speaking about the God in the Old Testament in the manner that you have written here?"
    jesus was a diplomat. he had a job ...[text shortened]... one to kill all the women and children of a nation. Ludicrous. Nevermind them, how've you been?"[/b]
    i talk that way about the fictional monster portrayed in the OT. the real God is not that guy.

    Jesus did not teach that His Father was "fictional" in the Hebrew Bible. Quite the contrary. It is your ignorance that is monstrous.

    All Christ had was the "Old Testament" as scripture. Where did He teach it was "fictional" or its God was "fictional" ?


    me: "Can you point out Jesus speaking about the God in the Old Testament in the manner that you have written here?"

    you: jesus was a diplomat. he had a job to do, to teach. he didn't specifically said how much of a monster the OT God character was, he just kindly overruled most of the laws supposedly given by God in the OT.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You're projecting your own diplomatic schemes on to the Son of God.

    Concerning the rituals of the law of Moses, Christ underplayed some. Concerning the morality of the law, He deepened it, heightened it, and made it more penetrating. He made it more obvious that we need salvation and a Savior.

    Concerning ritual aspects of the law, He pointed to Himself as the anti-type or reality, to which these symbolic actions referred.

    That He intended NOT to abolish the moral aspect of the law is seen in this teaching:

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets, I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

    For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all come to pass." (Matt. 5:17,18)


    me:
    "Site your examples of Jesus agreeing with you in the New Testament. "

    you: stopping the stoning of the woman.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That story has about 11 verses in John 8:1-11. Please spell out WHICH verse Jesus says ANYTHING derogatory about God in the Old Testament.

    He shined upon the people's consciences, that no one, except Himself, was qualified to stone the woman. He did not bad mouth Yahweh. That's your agenda.


    turn the other cheek instead of "eye for an eye".

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Again, He made the commandment MORE penetrating and even MORE demanding. This obviated the need for another life altogether. No one could make it. Only Jesus can make it.

    Therefore in this instance He hightened the nature of the commandment to touch not just the outward actions but the inner motive. He was speaking about Himself actually. He was discribing how He Himself lived, yet in the form of commandments.

    The need for His salvation and His indwelling is being taught. Only Christ is pleasing to God. And we need both the redemption of His blood in forgiveness (Matt. 26:26-30) and His available spiritual presence with us until the end of the age (Matt. 28:20).

    There is no bad mouthing about God in the Old Testament of any kind in the four Gospels. There is no bad mouthing about God in the Old Testament anywhere in the New Testament.

    That's your agenda as an accuser against God and to establish your own self righteousness.


    not telling anyone "those guys are idol worshippers", kill them.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The once in history theocratic nation with a specific land conquest occurred to Israel. The conquest of a physical promise land with enemies of God upon it is not the burden of the Gospel.

    But the ruthlessness to drive out the old fallen nature that God may spread the life and nature of Christ in His believers is just as strict. The conquest that Christ taught is TOWARD one's own soul.

    In all this teaching, however, He did not denigrate in any way God in the Hebrew Bible. That's your slanderous and perverted "diplomacy."


    by following jesus, one must be repulsed by the killings done in his name, both fictional and real.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I agree with that. But because you can be repulsed doesn't mean you are automatically a lover of God. You may be repulsed because you are obsessed with thinking "At least I am not that bad."

    This repulsion just gives you ground to boast of your self righteousness. This boasting is expressed in slandering God and even trying to enlist Christ to join you, which He never did.


    i find the genocide of the canaanites (fictional) just as repulsive as the massacres done by the crusades in the middle ages, again supposedly at the command of god.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I noticed that it was not the thnicity of the people that God was angry about. It was there sins. And the very SAME sins caused Him to punish at times His own Israelite nations.

    Were they not also punished for idol worship?
    Were they not also punished for fornication,oppression, adultery and other sins? They were. Sometimes a punishment from God overtook them in large numbers.

    This proves that is was not genocide against an ethnic race or culture that God was after. It was the elimination of the sinning done by WHOEVER practiced it.
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