1. Joined
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    11 Jun '08 11:53
    Take note, I'm not out to prove or disprove anyone's beliefs here, I'm simply asking a question that I'm hoping to get more intelligent responses to than I sometimes can get from the people in my community.

    To me, the God of the Old Testament (OT) seems so very, very different to the God of the New Testament (NT). A couple of reasons being:

    1) His complete favouritism of the Jews and seemingly higher value of each Jewish person than other people, comapred to the NT where he suddenly becomes vastly more accomodating to the Gentiles.

    2) His relative value placed on human life, where he's more than happy to personally strike down or send angels to kill many people in the OT, but as far as I can remember doesn't seem to directly cause harm to any person in the NT.

    3) His willingness to intervene entirely changes from one acting on his own ambitions, using the Jews as a whole as a conduit for his will on many occasions, compared to his seemingly complete lack of intervention in the NT where he only displays his power through his followers and in very pre-defined ways (healing, tongues, resurrection, etc.).

    Why does this change of personality seem to occur? Is it actually a change or is he essentially just changing his methods with the time? If he does change, would this not contradict the nature of God being a timeless being?

    Keep in mind, I'm not trying to attack the concept of God, I'm simply trying to understand this myself. I am a Theist, but one with so very, very many questions.
  2. Cape Town
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    11 Jun '08 12:22
    You forgot to include post New Testament. God stops sending prophets (unless you are a Muslim or mormon) and stops dictating the Bible.
  3. Joined
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    11 Jun '08 12:28
    I didn't consider that really crucial to the argument at hand, and is probably arguable even then. Certainly he stops dictating the Bible, but he may view it as being complete for the purpose it was created. Plus, prophets may well still be being sent even today (I don't think prophets in the bible knew they were such right from birth.

    Unless you were referring to the NT itself? In that prophets were no longer being sent and the Bible was no longer being dictated? Those would be valid arguments, although I do think prophesy still occurred in many forms.
  4. Joined
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    11 Jun '08 13:29
    Originally posted by JonoKyle
    God of the OT vs the NT
    This is what puzzles me a lot.

    Sometimes christian people quote some parts from the old testament and hold it for true (like the creation of the world), and sometimes they reject passages from the old testament completely (like all men should be circumsticed or be killed).

    So why not have the old testament, with its evil god, taken away from the bible alltogether, and only use the new testament, with its loving and caring god?

    Some christians that enjoy eating a fine pork shop, at the same time hating homosexuals. Why quoting only parts of the old testament and not taking all of it as the word of god?

    When people can explain this to me, until I can understand it, the christian faith is not worth believing in. If you ask me...
  5. Joined
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    11 Jun '08 14:07
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    This is what puzzles me a lot.

    Sometimes christian people quote some parts from the old testament and hold it for true (like the creation of the world), and sometimes they reject passages from the old testament completely (like all men should be circumsticed or be killed).

    So why not have the old testament, with its evil god, taken away from the bib ...[text shortened]... o me, until I can understand it, the christian faith is not worth believing in. If you ask me...
    there are evil passages in the new testament as well. you must understand that as much as christians want to believe, the bible was not written by God but by men(maybe women too, though we don't talk about that possibility).

    jewish people wanted to justify genocide so they put it on God's tap saying it is his will. paul probably never talked to jesus but he had a "vision" and then made a huge impact on christianity. i remember a passage from the letters the apostles sent to various christian communities where it was said that a widow must remain in mourning for the rest of her life even if she was 21 when the husband died.

    my advice to all is decide whether you believe in a supreme being, then decide what religion suits you more, then use your reason to remove any obsolete passages from that religion. you would then be a better person rather than a good christian or good muslim.
  6. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    16 Jun '08 15:06
    Originally posted by JonoKyle
    Take note, I'm not out to prove or disprove anyone's beliefs here, I'm simply asking a question that I'm hoping to get more intelligent responses to than I sometimes can get from the people in my community.

    To me, the God of the Old Testament (OT) seems so very, very different to the God of the New Testament (NT). A couple of reasons being:

    1) His com ...[text shortened]... ing to understand this myself. I am a Theist, but one with so very, very many questions.
    Many christians have also been struck by the apparent schizophrenia of their god. Some concluded that the OT god and the NT god were, in fact, different gods altogether. The Marcionites were the ones who pushed this angle the furthest. They believed that the OT, creator god was an evil (Jewish) god and that Jesus was sent by the one true (christian) god to deliver them from his clutches. Marcion rejected the entirety of the OT and was especially fond of Paul's writings.

    The obvious advantage of Marcion's version is that the christian god is no longer burdened by the problem of evil. It was the Jewish god who brought evil into the world. Marcion's conception of god can therefore just be a god of love and mercy and not have to go through endlessly convoluted arguments to try to reconcile that image with all the bloody OT baggage.

    Of course Marcion was declared a heretic and his teachings faded into relative obscurity.
  7. England
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    17 Jun '08 09:59
    the god of the OT is the god of the NT. tho he stuck by the jews they held fast to his way, others sought gods of stone and wood, but he got annoyed with them as well. he sent his son as promised and they rejected his teachings so he gave it to the gentiles, so all who belive may have eternal life if they belive themselves.
    he still in my view has not given up on the jews.
  8. Joined
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    17 Jun '08 10:12
    Originally posted by stoker
    the god of the OT is the god of the NT. tho he stuck by the jews they held fast to his way, others sought gods of stone and wood, but he got annoyed with them as well. he sent his son as promised and they rejected his teachings so he gave it to the gentiles, so all who belive may have eternal life if they belive themselves.
    he still in my view has not given up on the jews.
    The jews really aren't the issue I have here. I don't disagree with you about the Jews, but what I was trying to find opinions on is why God appears to radically change in character between the OT and the NT.
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    17 Jun '08 10:49
    1) His complete favouritism of the Jews and seemingly higher value of each Jewish person than other people, comapred to the NT where he suddenly becomes vastly more accomodating to the Gentiles.

    2) His relative value placed on human life, where he's more than happy to personally strike down or send angels to kill many people in the OT, but as far as I can remember doesn't seem to directly cause ...[text shortened]... h the time? If he does change, would this not contradict the nature of God being a timeless being?
    If you look in scripture you will find out what God is doing. In Romans11 you'll find that God is still going to be dealing with the jews in future. He seems different now because through Jesus's death and the jews rejecting him, he has taken an opportunity to give his blessing of life to and through all the nations and not just Israel anymore. A part of his plan that he kept secret before but is now made known through his word in the epistles of paul in the new testiment(this was bad news to satan). Hope this helps.
  10. Joined
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    17 Jun '08 14:24
    Originally posted by JonoKyle
    The jews really aren't the issue I have here. I don't disagree with you about the Jews, but what I was trying to find opinions on is why God appears to radically change in character between the OT and the NT.
    perhaps he decides to go in a different direction. first he makes an experiment with the jews to see what happens when a people isolates themselves from outside influence (supposedly negative) so that they lead good lives. that experiment went bust so instead he decide to preach a message of love and fuzzy feelings. that was more successful.
  11. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    17 Jun '08 14:44
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    perhaps he decides to go in a different direction. first he makes an experiment with the jews to see what happens when a people isolates themselves from outside influence (supposedly negative) so that they lead good lives. that experiment went bust so instead he decide to preach a message of love and fuzzy feelings. that was more successful.
    Why would an omniscient being need to perform an experiment? If he doesn't know how it will turn out in advance, then he is not omniscient to start with. Experiments are only useful for beings who don't know how things will turn out.
  12. Joined
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    17 Jun '08 14:54
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Why would an omniscient being need to perform an experiment? If he doesn't know how it will turn out in advance, then he is not omniscient to start with. Experiments are only useful for beings who don't know how things will turn out.
    maybe he is not omniscient. i wouldn't mind at all. in fact, i want god not to be omniscient. this way it is easier to maintain the illusion of free will
  13. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    17 Jun '08 14:59
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    maybe he is not omniscient. i wouldn't mind at all. in fact, i want god not to be omniscient. this way it is easier to maintain the illusion of free will
    That's a high price to pay for absolving god from the ultimate responsibility for evil, which is primarily what free will is all about. If god is not omniscient then his portfolio is seriously compromised.
  14. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    17 Jun '08 17:16
    Originally posted by JonoKyle
    Take note, I'm not out to prove or disprove anyone's beliefs here, I'm simply asking a question that I'm hoping to get more intelligent responses to than I sometimes can get from the people in my community.

    To me, the God of the Old Testament (OT) seems so very, very different to the God of the New Testament (NT). A couple of reasons being:

    1) His com ...[text shortened]... ing to understand this myself. I am a Theist, but one with so very, very many questions.
    In the NT, God strikes Ananias and Saphirah dead for lying. They were supposed to sell all they had and lay the money at the apostles' feet, but they kept something for themselves.

    For the OT, the answer is simple. If you claim "God told me to do it!" you can get away with all manner of genocide, forced marriage/rape, looting and plundering, and still pass yourself off as a moral nation.
  15. England
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    18 Jun '08 10:15
    Originally posted by JonoKyle
    The jews really aren't the issue I have here. I don't disagree with you about the Jews, but what I was trying to find opinions on is why God appears to radically change in character between the OT and the NT.
    do not think god changes but our faith changes early catholic doctrine teaches a hell fire god, latter, a loving forgiving god. they are both true the one is what he wants the other is what will happen if we go with our sins without his forgiveness
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