1. Account suspended
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    18 Jun '13 11:382 edits
    It appears to me that the vast majority of those who profess to be Christians are unaware of what the Kingdom is, yet it is the central tenet of Christ's teaching. Notice how this is described in the book of Isaiah, King James version.

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Of the increase of His government and peace
    There will be no end,
    Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
    To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
    From that time forward, even forever.
    The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Indeed Gods Kingdom is described as a government.

    In terms that we understand a government usually has different constituent parts, an executive body made up of a prime minister and minsters if you are in the UK. It also has an electorate or subjects over which the government holds dominion.

    Gods Kingdom (government) is no different, its ruler is Christ Jesus, its ministers the 144,000 who rule with Christ as co rulers and priests and a great multitude of persons from all tribes nations and tongues who will live under the direction of the heavenly government and who are its loyal subjects.

    Considering the corruption and greed of politicians, its a privilege to have such a contrast as our great leader the Christ is, loyal, just, self sacrificing and loving, his Kingdom being no part of this world, remains incorruptible.

    To whom shall you give your allegiance, the self serving governments of the system, or the Kingdom of the Christ?
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    18 Jun '13 13:15
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    It appears to me that the vast majority of those who profess to be Christians are unaware of what the Kingdom is, yet it is the central tenet of Christ's teaching. Notice how this is described in the book of Isaiah, King James version.

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the [b]government
    will be upon His shoulder.
    And ...[text shortened]... give your allegiance, the self serving governments of the system, or the Kingdom of the Christ?[/b]
    You are getting a bit ahead of yourself here. Where does it say in this piece how many ministers there should be. This is the first time I have heard of a government with that many ministers.
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    18 Jun '13 13:24
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    It appears to me that the vast majority of those who profess to be Christians are unaware of what the Kingdom is, yet it is the central tenet of Christ's teaching. Notice how this is described in the book of Isaiah, King James version.

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the [b]government
    will be upon His shoulder.
    And ...[text shortened]... give your allegiance, the self serving governments of the system, or the Kingdom of the Christ?[/b]
    Who is your spiritual Father? Jesus or Jehovah?
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    18 Jun '13 13:43
    Originally posted by deenny
    You are getting a bit ahead of yourself here. Where does it say in this piece how many ministers there should be. This is the first time I have heard of a government with that many ministers.
    Those who make up the heavenly government and co rulers with Christ.

    Revelation 14:1

    And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

    The great crowd, survivors of the great tribulation, thus still on earth and the loyal subjects of the heavenly Kingdom.

    Revelation 9:7-14

    After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

    “Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!”

    Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
  5. Joined
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    18 Jun '13 14:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Those who make up the heavenly government and co rulers with Christ.

    Revelation 14:1

    And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

    The great crowd, survivors of the great tribulation, thus still on earth ...[text shortened]... he great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Your getting totally mixed up here. most governments such as the Uk one you used as an example are elected by the people. Nowhere in any of you examples are the 144,000 given athority over the rest of us. You are adding 2+2 and getting 5.
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    18 Jun '13 14:243 edits
    Originally posted by deenny
    Your getting totally mixed up here. most governments such as the Uk one you used as an example are elected by the people. Nowhere in any of you examples are the 144,000 given athority over the rest of us. You are adding 2+2 and getting 5.
    it was simply an analogy, you understand that any reference to secular governments was used primarily for an illustrative purpose and far from getting mixed up as you have alleged, the matter is perfectly clear in my mind. The text mentions a throne a symbol of rulership, how you could possibly miss this glaring clue is quite beyond me. It also mentions power and strength, what did you think that meant? I am adding nothing, if you cannot comprehend the text, then you should at least seek to understand it prior to making these unfounded assertions.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    18 Jun '13 14:251 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    It appears to me that the vast majority of those who profess to be Christians are unaware of what the Kingdom is, yet it is the central tenet of Christ's teaching. Notice how this is described in the book of Isaiah, King James version.

    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the [b]government
    will be upon His shoulder.
    And ...[text shortened]... give your allegiance, the self serving governments of the system, or the Kingdom of the Christ?[/b]
    Indeed Gods Kingdom is described as a government.


    What you may miss is that it is a government by God dispensing His Spirit INTO man. That is a government by installing His life and nature in His people.

    This is the significance of the water of life pouring from the throne of God and of the Lamb -

    "And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Rev. 22:1)

    Out of the seat of divine administration flows out the Holy Spirit dispensing the Triune God into the city. That means into the people.

    You may remember that John wrote before of the Spirit being the rivers of living water -

    " ... If anyone thirst, let him come unto Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

    But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37b-39)


    The throne is the place of God's administration. And out of the throne flows the river of water of life - the Third Person of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit. And our of the innermost being flows the Spirit also. This proves that the government of God and the Lamb (for there is only one throne - God is in the Lamb) is a matter of Father-Son-Holy Spirit ruling man by being his life flowing out of his innermost being.

    This is the government of God in its purest form. If one does not want to receive the Spirit as living water in the innermost being, how can one say he is for the government of God ?


    In terms that we understand a government usually has different constituent parts, an executive body made up of a prime minister and minsters if you are in the UK. It also has an electorate or subjects over which the government holds dominion.

    Gods Kingdom (government) is no different, its ruler is Christ Jesus, its ministers the 144,000 who rule with Christ as co rulers and priests and a great multitude of persons from all tribes nations and tongues who will live under the direction of the heavenly government and who are its loyal subjects.


    Concerning your 144,000 co-governers - In either chapter of Revelation that specifically mentions 144,000 WHERE does the word reign appear ?

    In either Revelation 7 or 14 where is the word "kings" or "government" ?

    In either Revelation 7 or 14 which both mention 144,000 where do the words "co-kings," "co-rulers," or even "rule" appear ?

    We see that Christ has a government. But your association of that with 144,000 in either chapter 7 or 14 is something you are reading into the text. The chapters do not mention government and 144,000.

    Chapter 7 emphasizes that 144,000 are sealed and preserved.
    Chapter 14 emphasizes that 144,000 follow the Lamb and are firstfruits to God for His satisfaction.

    Preservation and Satisfaction are what is written in connection with each instance of the number 144,000. All this about them being co-kings are concepts you are putting into those chapters.

    It does not say that they do NOT reign with Christ. But neither does it emphasize that they do.

    That Christ has co-kings is evident. Today the believers who overcome "reign in life through the One Jesus Christ" . As a reward for reigning in life over self, temper, old man, sin, fallen nature, they will reign with Christ as co-kings in the millennium.

    This is a reward which can be obtained of loss depending on how the believer has reigned in life, lived by the reigning grace within in the church age.

    Ie. "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

    "Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him, ..." (2 Tim. 2:11,12)

    If we receive Jesus into our hearts and reign in the abundance of the grace which He brings in the church age, at His return we will continue to reign over the nations with Him as a reward, reigning on in the divine life.

    " ... much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17)

    If you want to participate in the reigning with Christ as a co-king over the nations you must receive Christ into your being, receive the abundance of grace He brings, and reign over the old fallen Adamic nature in your own being in this age first. This is to overcome. And to the overcomer He grants the reward of reigning with Him to shepherd the nations.

    The nations on earth left after the great tribulation will need a period of shepherding, even as breaking pots with an iron rod as the need arises.

    But only those filled up with Christ in their daily living in this age will be prepared to govern with Him for those thousand years.



    Considering the corruption and greed of politicians, its a privilege to have such a contrast as our great leader the Christ is, loyal, just, self sacrificing and loving, his Kingdom being no part of this world, remains incorruptible.


    Christ is coming as the smiting stone to break in pieces all the world governments and establish His reign on the planet. See the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel's interpretation in Daniel chapter two.


    To whom shall you give your allegiance, the self serving governments of the system, or the Kingdom of the Christ?


    This is why I am saying men should receive Christ into their hearts by faith. He is today not only seated in the heavens at the right hand of God (Rom. 8:34) but also within those who receive His Spirit (Rom. 8:9-11)

    For the "last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) in order that Christ, having forgiven us of our sins and washed us in His blood of redemption, may come and live within us bringing the abundance of grace with Him.

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." ( Philemon 21)

    The promise to reign as co-king with Christ is open to every single Christian that has lived. It is not restricted to some number and certainly not limited to 144,000 in Revelation 7 or 14.

    " IF ... we endure, we will also reign with Him ..." ( 2 Tim. 2:12)

    "He who overcomes and keeps My works until the end ... to him I will give authority over the nations ... etc." (Rev. 2:26)

    As long as you believe that those passages are not addressed to anyone except the 144,000 you are being cheated. You should stop believing that. And you should understand that all who are washed in the blood have the right (if they overcome through His abundant grace) to participate in the kingdom and priesthood now and in the millennial kingdom.

    " ... from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and has released us from out sins by His blood

    And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be tge glory and the might forever and ever. Amen." (Rev. 1:5,6)


    As long as you read any promise like this and think it only applies to 144,000 your are being CHEATED by a lie. The promise is to anyone washed in the blood of redemption in Christ and is loved by Christ, and lives through, by, and unto Christ by His indwelling Spirit. A-N-Y-O-N-E !
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    18 Jun '13 14:294 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    Indeed Gods Kingdom is described as a government.


    What you may miss is that it is a government by God dispensing His Spirit INTO man. That is a government by installing His life and nature in His people.

    This is the significance of the water of life pouring from the throne of God and of the Lamb -

    [b]"And he showed me a river h, by, and unto Christ by His indwelling Spirit. A-N-Y-O-N-E !
    If you cannot discern the details then why should I explain it at every turn, the text mentions a throne, a symbol of ruler ship, it also mentions power and strength, yah think? I have accurately described the governmental arrangement, I have not attempted to state what it will accomplish nor by what means. Unless your text is concise jaywill, i rarely read past two paragraphs, i simply do not have the ability to focus that long. Your last text was four monitors full and I have a large monitor, please try to fit it into one page at least that way it will not be wasted on me.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    18 Jun '13 14:422 edits
    Where are the words "rule" or "reign" or "co-king" or "co-ruler" "kingdom" in either chapter 7 or 14 of Revelation in connection with 144,000 people ?
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    18 Jun '13 14:576 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    Where are the words "rule" or "reign" or "co-king" or "co-ruler" "kingdom" in either chapter 7 or 14 of Revelation in connection with 144,000 people ?
    they are on mount Zion, a figurative use of the term Zion for Gods Kingdom,

    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, Hebrews 12:22

    literal Jerusalem had a King and a priesthood, did it not, and as Paul tells us these things were a typical representation of the heavenly things, are they not, thus Christ is pictured as the lamb upon mount Zion (the heavenly Kingdom) with those who rule as Kings and priests, the 144,000 (Peter termed this a royal priesthood) are with him.

    But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood (kings and priests) - 1 Peter 2:9

    I suspect that having a little knowledge of the Hebrew text and the temple arrangement (spending most of your time in the Greek portion) and how it prefigures the heavenly one has left you somewhat bereft.

    texts for consideration:

    Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 19:28

    Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” Jesus said in answer: “you men do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” He said to them: “you will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Matthew 20:20

    Christ acknowledges that there would be certain privileges for those who are with him in Gods Kingdom.
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    18 Jun '13 15:41
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    it was simply an analogy, you understand that any reference to secular governments was used primarily for an illustrative purpose and far from getting mixed up as you have alleged, the matter is perfectly clear in my mind. The text mentions a throne a symbol of rulership, how you could possibly miss this glaring clue is quite beyond me. It also ment ...[text shortened]... text, then you should at least seek to understand it prior to making these unfounded assertions.
    It was you who said that god's government was simliar to earthly governments and then went on to describe something completely different from your own example. your still have not shown why these 144,000 have any special authority. Seems they are just part of the mob.
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    18 Jun '13 16:101 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Revelation 14:1

    And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

    The great crowd, survivors of the great tribulation, thus still on earth and the loyal subjects of the heavenly Kingdom.

    ...

    And he said, “ ...[text shortened]... he great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Survivors?

    Or martyrs?

    A lot of Christians will die during the tribulation. A lot. I'd go so far as to say most.

    Except those who take the Mark.

    Except those 'survivors' won't exactly be standing before God, except in judgement.

    "they who have come out of the great tribulation" doesn't necessarily mean survivors. Which group do you think will be standing before God? Those who die in Jesus' name as martyrs, or those who 'survive' because they take the Mark? In fact, "washed their robes and made them white" suggests they were some other color before this. Like red, with their own blood.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    18 Jun '13 16:242 edits
    I will not return the whine that this is too long to read.

    they are on mount Zion, a figurative use of the term Zion for Gods Kingdom,


    Mount Zion is mentioned many times in the Bible. You did not show me where "government" or "reign" or "rule or "kings" or "co-kings" or "co-rulers" or any such word appears in the two chapters talking explicitly about 144,000 people.


    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, Hebrews 12:22


    That is all well and good. But the "you" would be any believing Christian reader of the epistle of the book of Hebrews.

    How can you possibly say that the "you" there refers to 144,000 individuals ONLY in chapters 7 or 14 of Revelation ?


    literal Jerusalem had a King and a priesthood, did it not, and as Paul tells us these


    Now I think you are inconsistent. When I show Paul speaking to "us" may say that such a passage only refers to 144,000 individuals in Revelation 7 or 14.

    On what basis do you can you tell the difference between when Paul is addressing a particular 144,000 people and anyone else ?

    To confirm your interpretation you have to believe that in many places Paul is only talking to or about 144,000 specific individuals. This is absurd.


    things were a typical representation of the heavenly things, are they not, thus Christ is pictured as the lamb upon mount Zion (the heavenly Kingdom) with those who rule as Kings and priests, the 144,000 (Peter termed this a royal priesthood) are with him.


    The problem is that you are implying that Peter is ONLY speaking to a specific 144,000 people when his letter says -

    "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession"

    His letter is addressed to "to the sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadpcia, Asia, and Buthynia, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ..." (1 Pet. 1:1)

    Why do you assume this only includes 144,000 people who are again seen in Revelation 7 or 14 ?

    Tired of reading ? Don't be tired.

    I would say the verse saying " ... according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope thorough the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (v.4) indicates Peter is addressing ALL, ANY, EVERY Christian anywhere, down through the ages who has been regenerated and has in him or her the living hope in the resurrected Christ.

    Why do you limit the speaking to 144,000 on Mount Zion ?


    But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood (kings and priests) - 1 Peter 2:9


    That is still not in the two chapters saying anything particular about 144,000 people - Revelation 7 and 14.


    I suspect that having a little knowledge of the Hebrew text and the temple arrangement (spending most of your time in the Greek portion) and how it prefigures the heavenly one has left you somewhat bereft.


    You suspect wrong.

    The number of 144,000 people is mentioned in two chapters of the Bible - Revelation 7 and 14. Among the various things it says in each case it does not mention "government" or "reign" or "co-kings" or "co-rulers" or "kingdom" or "governing body" or "governing rulers" or "regents" or "administrators" or the like.

    You are shoe horning all that into those chapters. And you want to justify it by referring to Mt. Zion in other places in the Bible.


    texts for consideration:

    Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


    I already provided texts about co-reigning with Christ and you complained that there was too much to read.

    Okay Jesus in THAT particular passage was talking to 12 disciples judging 12 tribes from 12 thrones.

    1.) Judas was not included though he was one of the original twelve.

    2.) There are twelve thrones in that passage and not 144,000 thrones.

    3.) Though twelve followers will do this cannot exclude others from at least reigning with Christ. So the number of administrating thrones in the millennial kingdom is unknown completely.



    Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” Jesus said in answer: “you men do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” He said to them: “you will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Matthew 20:20


    So something has been prepared for some. The number for whom it has been prepared is absent.

    Nothing in this passage proves that 144,000 is the number for whom this matter is prepared.


    Christ acknowledges that there would be certain privileges for those who are with him in Gods Kingdom.


    That may be true. But no NUMBER is given. And insisting that it has to be 144,000 based on Revelation 7 or 14 is just conjecture. It is speculation and not that strong.

    Revelation 7 says 144,000 are sealed and protected and are from the 12 tribes Israel. Nothing of government is mentioned.

    Revelation 14 says 144,000 are raptured to stand with Christ and their singing is heard from heaven. They are pleasing especially to God as Firstfruits. Nothing there either is mentioned about them being co-kings.

    It does not say they will NOT reign. But neither does it insist that they WILL. It is simply silent on that detail and gives attention to OTHER details.
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    18 Jun '13 16:251 edit
    Originally posted by deenny
    It was you who said that god's government was simliar to earthly governments and then went on to describe something completely different from your own example. your still have not shown why these 144,000 have any special authority. Seems they are just part of the mob.
    if that's the way it seems to you then that's the way it seems, I for my part have demonstrated to Jaywill that they are upon a figurative mount Zion (Gods Kingdom), with the lamb, the great crowd however, stand before the throne of the lamb, they are not figuratively on mount Zion with the lamb, but before the throne. I cannot make it any simpler nor clearer than that.
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    18 Jun '13 16:26
    Originally posted by sonship
    I will not return the whine that this is too long to read.

    they are on mount Zion, a figurative use of the term Zion for Gods Kingdom,


    Mount Zion is mentioned many times in the Bible. You did not show me where "government" or "reign" or "rule or "kings" or "co-kings" or "co-rulers" or any such word appears in the two chapters talkin ...[text shortened]... ] on that detail and gives attention to OTHER details.
    It is too long and is wasted upon me, sorry.
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