1. Zugzwang
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    30 Jan '15 20:454 edits
    According to a Syrian human rights group, an accused adulteress (I don't know
    to what extent she had received a 'fair trial' ) was condemned to be stoned
    to death by an ISIS faction. Some men threw stones at her until she appeared
    to be dead and assumed that the sentence had been properly carried out.
    But then the woman stood up and attempted to flee. One man was about
    to shoot her when an Islamic cleric stopped him and declared that it was
    God's will that the woman should live. He apparently believed that the
    accused adulteress's astonishing survival was evidence of a kind of miracle,
    though not enough to prove her innocence. He declared that she should
    be free to go as long as she expressed her sincere repentance to God.

    If her repentance was enough to satisfy the demands of ISIS's interpretation
    of Islamic law *after* her stoning, then why would not have been enough
    to satisfy it *before*? It seems to me that if one believed that God had
    intervened to save this woman's life, then that 'miracle' should call into
    question both the validity of her conviction and punishment for adultery.

    And just in case some pious Christians here would like to condemn these
    Islamists as barbarous, here's what the Bible says about stoning a woman:

    "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband, and man find her
    in the city and lie with her, then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate
    of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel,
    because she cried not, being in the city."
    --Deuteronomy 22:23-24

    So if a betrothed (already scheduled to belong to another man) virgin is
    taken by force and deflowered (thus making her 'damaged goods', ruining
    her value in the marriage market) by a man in the city, then she should
    be stoned to death because she had failed to cry out loudly enough!
    But one of the first things that a rapist often does when he seizes his victim
    is to clap his hand over her mouth and warn her not to scream for help.
    As far as I know, at least ISIS has not begun to enforce this Biblical edict.

    As a general question to the Christians here, would you radically change any
    of your now deeply held attitudes or practices if you happened to observe
    an astonishing event that you construed as evidence of God's will in action?
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    30 Jan '15 20:55
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    According to a Syrian human rights group, an accused adulteress (I don't
    know to what extent she received a 'fair trial' ) was condemned to be stoned
    to death by an ISIS faction. Some men threw stones at her until she appeared
    to be dead, then assuming that the sentence had been propoerly carried out.
    But then the woman stood up and attempted to flee. ...[text shortened]... appened to observe
    an astonishing event that you construed as evidence of God's will in action?
    It appears to me that the Holy Bible condemns both the woman and the man. So what happened to the man in your Islamic example?

    Jesus said, "He who is without sin should cast the first stone" and all the accusers departed.
  3. Zugzwang
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    30 Jan '15 21:041 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    It appears to me that the Holy Bible condemns both the woman and the man.
    So what happened to the man in your Islamic example?

    Jesus said, "He who is without sin should cast the first stone" and all the accusers departed.
    'It appears to me that the Holy Bible condemns both the woman and the man."
    --RJHinds

    In the Biblical passage that I quoted, if a man rapes an engaged virgin in
    the city and she fails to cry out enough in time for other people to intervene
    and save her from being 'ruined', then *both* the rapist and his victim
    *should* be stoned to death. Does RJHinds approve of this punishment?

    The news article did not mention what happened to the man with whom
    this Syrian Muslim woman was accused of having committed adultery.
  4. Account suspended
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    30 Jan '15 21:342 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    According to a Syrian human rights group, an accused adulteress (I don't know
    to what extent she had received a 'fair trial' ) was condemned to be stoned
    to death by an ISIS faction. Some men threw stones at her until she appeared
    to be dead and assumed that the sentence had been properly carried out.
    But then the woman stood up and attempted to flee. ...[text shortened]... appened to observe
    an astonishing event that you construed as evidence of God's will in action?
    This is a typical Islamic belief, they believe heavily in fate. Thus it was fated that the women should survive.

    The verse that you cite is not binding on Christians, it was part of the Mosiac law, binding exclusively upon Jews. Many persons, even some Christians don't understand the relationship between the Jewish system of things and how it relates to Christianity. This can be for a number of reasons, a preoccupation with the Greek text at the expense of the Hebrew, a lack of knowledge of both, a rejection of Paul (without Paul we would not know how they relate).

    Two excellent books which explore the relationship thoroughly are , 'the life and times of the messiah' and 'temple - its ministry and services', both authored by a Jewish convert to Christianity, Alfred Edersheim
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    30 Jan '15 21:48
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    'It appears to me that the Holy Bible condemns both the woman and the man."
    --RJHinds

    In the Biblical passage that I quoted, if a man rapes an engaged virgin in
    the city and she fails to cry out enough in time for other people to intervene
    and save her from being 'ruined', then *both* the rapist and his victim
    *should* be stoned to death. Does RJH ...[text shortened]... appened to the man with whom
    this Syrian Muslim woman was accused of having committed adultery.
    That was under the Old Covenant and the law of Moses. Christ Jesus brought a New Covenant and the law of liberty.

    http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd16.htm
  6. Standard membervivify
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    31 Jan '15 02:48
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    That was under the Old Covenant and the law of Moses. Christ Jesus brought a New Covenant and the law of liberty.

    http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd16.htm
    No, he really didn't. He said "cast the first stone", meaning that he left that woman's fate up to those men. Had those men not felt conscience-stricken, that woman would be dead. Nowhere did Jesus ever condemn such OT practices.
  7. Joined
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    31 Jan '15 08:581 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    According to a Syrian human rights group, an accused adulteress (I don't know
    to what extent she had received a 'fair trial' ) was condemned to be stoned
    to death by an ISIS faction. Some men threw stones at her until she appeared
    to be dead and assumed that the sentence had been properly carried out.
    But then the woman stood up and attempted to flee. ...[text shortened]... appened to observe
    an astonishing event that you construed as evidence of God's will in action?
    What was the point of the long post about the IS mentalists? Why not just ask:

    As a general question to the Christians here, would you radically change any
    of your now deeply held attitudes or practices if you happened to observe
    an astonishing event that you construed as evidence of God's will in action?


    The IS cleric who intervened was not changing any if his "deeply held beliefs" he was practicing them.
  8. Joined
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    31 Jan '15 09:04
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    This is a typical Islamic belief, they believe heavily in fate.
    This is not my understanding of how Isalmic faith works. In fact there is evidence to the contrary.
  9. Joined
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    31 Jan '15 09:06
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Christ Jesus brought a New Covenant and the law of liberty ...
    Please explain using biblical scripture, what the "law of liberty" is. Thanks.
  10. Germany
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    31 Jan '15 09:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    This is a typical Islamic belief, they believe heavily in fate. Thus it was fated that the women should survive.

    The verse that you cite is not binding on Christians, it was part of the Mosiac law, binding exclusively upon Jews. Many persons, even some Christians don't understand the relationship between the Jewish system of things and how it rel ...[text shortened]... its ministry and services', both authored by a Jewish convert to Christianity, Alfred Edersheim
    What is your take on Matthew 5?
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    31 Jan '15 09:10
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What is your take on Matthew 5?
    He may have the courage to outright tell you that JWs believe those beatitudes are aimed directly at them and them only.
  12. Germany
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    31 Jan '15 09:17
    Originally posted by divegeester
    He may have the courage to outright tell you that JWs believe those beatitudes are aimed directly at them and them only.
    I was thinking more about Matthew 5:17-20, which states:

    17 Don't suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.
    19 If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. 20 You must obey God's commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don't, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

    This appears to be at odds with robbie's suggestion that the Mosaic Law ought no longer to be valid.
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    31 Jan '15 09:26
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I was thinking more about Matthew 5:17-20, which states:

    17 Don't suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must h ...[text shortened]... appears to be at odds with robbie's suggestion that the Mosaic Law ought no longer to be valid.
    I don't think so. It is important not to confuse the law with the punishment itself. Under mosaic law we have all transgressed and that never changes, what changes in the new convenant is the sacrifice is now perfect and covers that transgression. I'm not entirely clear on OT though and I don't understand how some sins were covered by animal sacrifice but others demanded the death penalty.

    As a Christian myself I hold to mercy, love and the redeeming work of Christ. Others here like RJHinds (famously), Grampy bobby, lemon lime, josephw, sonship (famously) et al hold to burning people in an eternal furnace, which kind of makes a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ,
  14. Account suspended
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    31 Jan '15 10:312 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I was thinking more about Matthew 5:17-20, which states:

    17 Don't suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must h ...[text shortened]... appears to be at odds with robbie's suggestion that the Mosaic Law ought no longer to be valid.
    This appears to be at odds with robbie's suggestion that the Mosaic Law ought no longer to be valid

    Hardly!

    When Christ was alive he often instructed others to obey the Law. When he healed a man of leprosy he instructed him to go and present himself to the priests, in accordance with the law.

    However when Christ died and offered up his life, the Law was fulfilled because as Paul pointed out, the entire Law itself was simply 'a tutor leading towards the Christ', a mere shadow of heavenly things. All that the law did was prepare an environment conducive to the acceptance of the Christ. It made sins manifest and highlighted the need for sacrifice. However many could not grasp the spiritual significance and their worship was merely an empty ritual and they rejected the Christ.

    When Christ died, the Law was fulfilled, Christians had a new high priest, a new arrangement, a heavenly one and as Paul points out, it was not possible for animal sacrifices to make atonement for sin and what had been lost, a perfect human life in the form of Adam, that was why they were being offered year after year.

    After the sacrifice of the Christ however, all of that changed. The temple was not earthly it was heavenly, sacrifice was no longer needed, neither was the law because there was a more perfect law in place, the law of the Christ with its basis not on formal ritual, but on conscience.

    However while Christ was alive the law was still operative and that is why he directs others to keep it. Thus there is no incongruity with what I have said and the actions of the Christ while he was still alive.
  15. Standard memberredbadger
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    31 Jan '15 12:49
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    According to a Syrian human rights group, an accused adulteress (I don't know
    to what extent she had received a 'fair trial' ) was condemned to be stoned
    to death by an ISIS faction. Some men threw stones at her until she appeared
    to be dead and assumed that the sentence had been properly carried out.
    But then the woman stood up and attempted to flee. ...[text shortened]... appened to observe
    an astonishing event that you construed as evidence of God's will in action?
    I didn't know God had made a will ?
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