Grace and Truth ..

.. came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

How can dispensationalists therefore remove Jesus from the Dispensation of Grace and place Him in the Old Testament along with the Law of Moses. The Bible says

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

A clear line of demarcation between the two eras, was the birth of Jesus Christ who heralded in the Dispensation of Grace. Thats error #1 with the concept of Dispensation.

Error #2 is assuming that there is a difference between the teachings/commandments of Jesus Christ and the work/function of the Comforter who came on the Day of Pentecost. The truth is that there is none.. no difference.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (John 14:15-18 KJV)

The role of the Comforter :
- To take the place of Jesus
- To be with those who love Jesus and those who keep the commandments
- To dwell in the disciples and followers of Christ.
- To teach the disciples and remind them of what Christ preached and commanded
- To correct sinners and call them to repentance
- To encourage righteousness and good works

Christ was clear that the Comforter is not just for any and every body because not everyone can receive the Spirit of Truth, neither can they see him.

Jesus Christ is one with The Comforter = The Spirit of Truth = The Holy Spirit
There is no difference in teachings and in doctrine.

There are many reasons why Christians would like to have Jesus Christ removed from the Dispensation of Grace, but none of these reasons are biblical, instead all these reasons revolve around the crooked and selfish desires of the world.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[b].. came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

How can dispensationalists therefore remove Jesus from the Dispensation of Grace and place Him in the Old Testament along with the Law of Moses. The Bible says

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

A clear line of demarcation between t ...[text shortened]... biblical, instead all these reasons revolve around the crooked and selfish desires of the world.[/b]

John 12
44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50“I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Here Jesus makes it clear that it is HIS WORDS that He spoke while He walked the Earth that:
1) bring "Light into the world"
2) are that by which one will be judged
3) are eternal life

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
John 12
44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. [b]46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not c ...[text shortened]... :
1) bring "Light into the world"
2) are that by which one will be judged
3) are eternal life[/b]

Those are three critical statements by Jesus which are largely ignored by many who profess to believe in him. For them the teachings of Christ are useful, and important... but not critical and essential for eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[b].. came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

How can dispensationalists therefore remove Jesus from the Dispensation of Grace and place Him in the Old Testament along with the Law of Moses. The Bible says

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

A clear line of demarcation between t ...[text shortened]... biblical, instead all these reasons revolve around the crooked and selfish desires of the world.[/b]

"There are many reasons why Christians would like to have Jesus Christ removed from the Dispensation of Grace,.."

Christians do no such thing. You are suffering from some kind of delusion. On the other hand there are some like you and ToO that remove the cross from salvation.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"There are many reasons why Christians would like to have Jesus Christ removed from the Dispensation of Grace,.."

Christians do no such thing. You are suffering from some kind of delusion. On the other hand there are some like you and ToO that remove the cross from salvation.[/b]

Have a read of the thread "Checkbaiter and the New Dispensation" on page 3.

In what way did I remove the cross from salvation. I would be interested in finding out if you dont mind explaining yourself.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Have a read of the thread "Checkbaiter and the New Dispensation" on page 3.

In what way did I remove the cross from salvation. I would be interested in finding out if you dont mind explaining yourself.

Ok. I read through the thread, but paid closer attention to the opening posts.

Why don't we begin with a clean slate. I think we are in disagreement based on misunderstanding. Also, we are fallible, and we are not omniscient.

There are a whole lot of things I could say and launch into, but I'm not going to do it. I'm just too simple anyway. So I'll say a couple of simple things and see where it leads.

Point one.

God's Word is the final authority on all matters of the faith, and is not open to private or personal interpretation, but in fact interprets itself when properly understood.


Point two.

Salvation is of God. It becomes ours when we recieve it by faith.

Do you agree with these two points so far? Wish to elaborate?

Originally posted by josephw
Ok. I read through the thread, but paid closer attention to the opening posts.

Why don't we begin with a clean slate. I think we are in disagreement based on misunderstanding. Also, we are fallible, and we are not omniscient.

There are a whole lot of things I could say and launch into, but I'm not going to do it. I'm just too simple anyway. So I'll sa ...[text shortened]... s when we recieve it by faith.

Do you agree with these two points so far? Wish to elaborate?

I would have preferred you to deal with the dispensation matter and whether or not it is an attempt to remove Christ from the Dispensation of Grace. But maybe you have your reasons why you prefer not to.

So I will play along. I agree with your two points, provided we agree on what faith means. Please define the term 'faith' Some Christians say that professing with your mouth that you believe in Christ is faith. What do you think it means?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I would have preferred you to deal with the dispensation matter and whether or not it is an attempt to remove Christ from the Dispensation of Grace. But maybe you have your reasons why you prefer not to.

So I will play along. I agree with your two points, provided we agree on what faith means. Please define the term 'faith' Some Christians say that professing with your mouth that you believe in Christ is faith. What do you think it means?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You're asking me what I think "faith" means? In the simplest terms I can think of it means believing and trusting. The Bible, other than the direct definition given in Hebrews 11:1, gives us many examples throughout its pages of God's people exercising their faith in God's Word by obedience to it. Faith is what one does in response to God's revealed will. But I'm still learning what faith means, so I haven't arrived yet at full knowledge, and won't till I arrive in glory.


I'm sure it can be said better, but that's just off the cuff for now. Does that work for you? No sarcasm intended.

P.S. I come and go at various times of the day or night. Expect a reply though as soon as time allows.

Originally posted by josephw
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You're asking me what I think "faith" means? In the simplest terms I can think of it means believing and trusting. The Bible, other than the direct definition given in Hebrews 11:1, gives us many examples throughout its pages of God's people exercising their faith in God's Word b ...[text shortened]... come and go at various times of the day or night. Expect a reply though as soon as time allows.

OK good. You mentioned three critical elements of faith:
- Believing
- Trusting
- Obeying

So I am in agreement with your post listing the two initial points.
Nobody is at the point where faith is perfected.
No problem with the times of your post.
What next?

Originally posted by josephw
Ok. I read through the thread, but paid closer attention to the opening posts.

Why don't we begin with a clean slate. I think we are in disagreement based on misunderstanding. Also, we are fallible, and we are not omniscient.

There are a whole lot of things I could say and launch into, but I'm not going to do it. I'm just too simple anyway. So I'll sa ...[text shortened]... s when we recieve it by faith.

Do you agree with these two points so far? Wish to elaborate?

God's Word is the final authority on all matters of the faith, and is not open to private or personal interpretation, but in fact interprets itself when properly understood.

Ultimately doesn't "properly understood" boil down to "interpreted properly"? If not, what does it mean?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]God's Word is the final authority on all matters of the faith, and is not open to private or personal interpretation, but in fact interprets itself when properly understood.

Ultimately doesn't "properly understood" boil down to "interpreted properly"? If not, what does it mean?[/b]

Well, like Peter said in 1 Peter 1:20. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

I take it to mean no one interprets the Word of themselves, by themselves or for themselves. The Word of God interprets itself to and for us. The Word of God says what it means and means what it says.

For us to interpret God's Word is akin to us defining God. God defines Himself to us. All that's needed for us to do is to get out of the way and listen. Allow The Word to speak for itself. And listen.

Originally posted by Rajk999
OK good. You mentioned three critical elements of faith:
- Believing
- Trusting
- Obeying

So I am in agreement with your post listing the two initial points.
Nobody is at the point where faith is perfected.
No problem with the times of your post.
What next?

What's next? Well, our disagreement, or better yet, the disagreement concerning salvation.

There seems to be the idea going around that there are two factions saying two different things about how salvation is obtained. What part does the believer play in salvation? If any. It is said, one faction says the believer doesn't do anything, and the other faction says he does.

So which is it? How can we boil it down to just a few simple statements that convey the truth of the matter so that no disagreement will exist?

If you care to I would welcome any modifications to what I said to achieve clarity between us.

Originally posted by josephw
Well, like Peter said in 1 Peter 1:20. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

I take it to mean no one interprets the Word of themselves, by themselves or for themselves. The Word of God interprets itself to and for us. The Word of God says what it means and means what it says.

For us to interpret God' ...[text shortened]... or us to do is to get out of the way and listen. Allow The Word to speak for itself. And listen.

If "The Word of God interprets itself to and for us [and] says what it means and means what it says", then why is there a such disparity in what people believe it says?

For example, amongst the people who post on this forum AND amongst the multitudinous denominations of Christianity.

How can one distinguish between which have "allow[ed] the Word to speak for itself" and which haven't? Don't they pretty much ALL believe that they have?

Originally posted by josephw
What's next? Well, our disagreement, or better yet, the disagreement concerning salvation.

There seems to be the idea going around that there are two factions saying two different things about how salvation is obtained. What part does the believer play in salvation? If any. It is said, one faction says the believer doesn't do anything, and the other facti ...[text shortened]...
If you care to I would welcome any modifications to what I said to achieve clarity between us.

Ok before we go into the details lets add an another item to the list :

- Profess with your mouth that Christ came and died for us
- Believing that to be the truth
- Trusting in God for eternal life
- Obedience to God/Christ.

These 4 are what I think are the critical elements of the faith of the Christian.

If you agree then it is not possible to also believe that the believer has nothing to do.
The believer has a part to play in eternal life Christ did his part and Christians are also expected to do theirs:

- First with their mouth
- Then with their whole being - mind body and soul.
- Believe in their heart
- Trust that God will keep his promise of eternal life
- Obey Christ commandments.

These can all be substantiated with references from Christ and the Apostles.

So to my mind the doctrine that preaches that the professed follower of Christ has nothing to do, is incorrect.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If "The Word of God interprets itself to and for us [and] says what it means and means what it says", then why is there a such disparity in what people believe it says?

For example, amongst the people who post on this forum AND amongst the multitudinous denominations of Christianity.

How can one distinguish between which have "allow[ed] the Word to speak for itself" and which haven't? Don't they pretty much ALL believe that they have?

I think the disparity can be understood to be caused in two ways. Immaturity and the devil. But not to worry because Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

As to your second point, every true son of God is where he's at in his spiritual growth. Paul has a whole chapter for that I think.

Romans 14
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Of course this isn't an excuse for heresy. The devil has his preachers.