Grace and Truth ..

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok before we go into the details lets add an another item to the list :

- Profess with your mouth that Christ came and died for us
- Believing that to be the truth
- Trusting in God for eternal life
- Obedience to God/Christ.

These 4 are what I think are the critical elements of the faith of the Christian.

If you agree then it is not possible to ...[text shortened]... he doctrine that preaches that the professed follower of Christ has nothing to do, is incorrect.

I see what you're saying. I really do. And I agree that one must do those things. I really do.

So I ask this question to try and illustrate the point of the opposing view.

What would be the point in doing all those things, even perfectly, if that were possible, if Jesus had not sacrificed his life on the cross?

Would you not agree that salvation would not be possible without the shed blood of Christ?

So, you see, Christ first needed to die a substitutionary death. Then, when one believes with their heart that Jesus died for his sins, only then will the Holy Spirit cause the believer to be "born again" and be filled with the Spirit of God thereby empowering the believer to live a life pleasing and acceptable to God.

Without salvation first there is no power to obey from the heart. Faked by many, lived in truth by few.

Does that make sense to you? Did I miss something essential?

Originally posted by josephw
I think the disparity can be understood to be caused in two ways. Immaturity and the devil. But not to worry because Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

As to your second point, every true son of God is where he's at in his spiritual growth. Paul has a whole chapter for that I think.

Romans 14
Him that is weak in the fai ...[text shortened]... not of faith is sin.

Of course this isn't an excuse for heresy. The devil has his preachers.

Then the bottom line would be that it is not true that "The Word of God interprets itself to and for us [and] says what it means and means what it says" and that 2 Peter 1:20 doesn't say what you believe it says. Your interpretation is wrong. You need to read it in context.

Originally posted by josephw
I see what you're saying. I really do. And I agree that one must do those things. I really do.

So I ask this question to try and illustrate the point of the opposing view.

What would be the point in doing all those things, even perfectly, if that were possible, if Jesus had not sacrificed his life on the cross?

Would you not agree that salvation wou ...[text shortened]... by many, lived in truth by few.

Does that make sense to you? Did I miss something essential?

You raised several points here so lets take this slowly. You said:

What would be the point in doing all those things, even perfectly, if that were possible, if Jesus had not sacrificed his life on the cross?

This seems to suggest that because Christ died on the cross, I can now not bother with good works, righteous living, and even sin and escape the consequences of sin? The answer that is a resounding NO. And you know Im sure, that there is plenty proof of that in the writings of the Apostles.

Next, salvation is not possible without Christ and without the death of Christ... definitely .. I agree. Again the discerning Christian would steer clear of several pitfalls:
1. That it appears tempting to believe that it is a licence to sin and still get eternal life [like above]
2. That I need to do nothing more - a profession of faith is enough as Jesus has done the rest for me. [ this one violates the 4 critical elements of faith]
3. That following the commandments of Christ and doing good works is an insult to Christ.

These are all dangerous pitfalls and results from poor interpretation of what Christ died for.

As for this one:

Without salvation first there is no power to obey from the heart. Faked by many, lived in truth by few.

I completely disagree and I can prove that this statement is unBiblical.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Then the bottom line would be that it is not true that "The Word of God interprets itself to and for us [and] says what it means and means what it says" and that 2 Peter 1:20 doesn't say what you believe it says. Your interpretation is wrong. You need to read it in context.

Prove it. I'm listening. Explain how "is of any private interpretation" doesn't leave man out of interpreting the scriptures.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You raised several points here so lets take this slowly. You said:

What would be the point in doing all those things, even perfectly, if that were possible, if Jesus had not sacrificed his life on the cross?

This seems to suggest that because Christ died on the cross, I can now not bother with good works, righteous living, and even sin and escap ...[text shortened]... in truth by few.[/i]

I completely disagree and I can prove that this statement is unBiblical.

What you are saying is, in effect, that without obedience salvation is unobtainable.

Am I reading you correctly?

Originally posted by josephw
What you are saying is, in effect, that without obedience salvation is unobtainable.

Am I reading you correctly?

What Im saying is that eternal life depends on two things:
- Jesus sacrifice which saved mankind from certain death [even the most perfect]
- Obedience to God/Christ.

The first is done. The second we do as long as there iife in this body.

Originally posted by josephw
Prove it. I'm listening. Explain how "is of any private interpretation" doesn't leave man out of interpreting the scriptures.

2 peter 1
19So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

This passage is speaking to the prophecy (source) of Scripture. It is stating that the source of the Scripture was from "men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" and not merely based on their own interpretation.

Do you understand the distinction from what you believe it says?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
2 peter 1
19So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, ...[text shortened]... "men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" and not merely based on their own interpretation.

20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

That is a horrible translation. Where did you get it?

KJV 2 Peter 1:20&21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

That is an accurate translation.

The scriptures come from God. Right? Not men. Right? Then how can man interpret the scriptures? Man isn't the author. God is. Therefore the meaning of verse 20 can only mean one thing. Since man didn't author the scriptures he certainly is not qualified to interpret them. The scriptures interpret themselves.

It's no wonder there are so many denominations and factions. Too many think they can superimpose their idea of what the scriptures mean on the scriptures. That's why it says it's not open to private interpretation. That's why the scripture is compared with scripture to find the true interpretation. The scriptures interpret themselves to us. There's no other way to understand them correctly.

Originally posted by josephw
20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

That is a horrible translation. Where did you get it?

KJV 2 Peter 1:20&21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private ...[text shortened]... n. The scriptures interpret themselves to us. There's no other way to understand them correctly.

If you want to read the KJV, then read the KJV. Either way, 2 Peter 1:20 is speaking of those who WROTE Scripture. It is not speaking of those who read it.

This is clear from the context. Read the entire chapter.

The scriptures come from God. Right? Not men. Right? Then how can man interpret the scriptures? Man isn't the author. God is.

That is the point of 2 Peter 1:19-21.

Do you understand now?

Originally posted by Rajk999
What Im saying is that eternal life depends on two things:
- Jesus sacrifice which saved mankind from certain death [even the most perfect]
- Obedience to God/Christ.

The first is done. The second we do as long as there iife in this body.

That's a contradiction.

You are saying the acquisition, obtaining or securing of eternal life depends on what Jesus did for us and what we do for ourselves.

But Ephesians 2:8&9 says otherwise.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved by grace plus nothing. No works. No anything.

Saved is saved. Not saved if this or saved if that. Saved on the basis of God's grace alone. Not works.

One cannot earn salvation by doing anything. Even the faith through which we are saved by grace isn't ours, it is a gift from God.

Originally posted by josephw
That's a contradiction.

You are saying the acquisition, obtaining or securing of eternal life depends on what Jesus did for us and what we do for ourselves.

But Ephesians 2:8&9 says otherwise.

[b]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved by grace ...[text shortened]... anything. Even the faith through which we are saved by grace isn't ours, it is a gift from God.[/b]

Well something has to be wrong. Remember no scripture is of private interpretation . 🙂 Instead we need to look to other scripture for help.

The very same Paul, in the very same letter to Ephesians, to the very same saints in Christ, continued the explanation of what it entails to be saved and to get into the Kingdom of God. Paul says :

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:1-5 KJV)

Saints in Christ, who continue with sin will not get into the Kingdom of God. God will judge who was obedient and who disobeyed.

This is not an isolated statement. Every single Apostle repeats the same warning. faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you want to read the KJV, then read the KJV. Either way, 2 Peter 1:20 is speaking of those who WROTE Scripture. It is not speaking of those who read it.

This is clear from the context. Read the entire chapter.

[b]The scriptures come from God. Right? Not men. Right? Then how can man interpret the scriptures? Man isn't the author. God is.

That is the point of 2 Peter 1:19-21.

Do you understand now?[/b]

What I understand is that you are imposing your interpretation on what the verses are saying by saying they mean something other that what they're saying.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scriptures teach what they mean without private interpretation of them by individuals. That's how qualified and approved teachers teach the Word. By allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well something has to be wrong. Remember no scripture is of private interpretation . 🙂 Instead we need to look to other scripture for help.

The very same Paul, in the very same letter to Ephesians, to the very same saints in Christ, continued the explanation of what it entails to be saved and to get into the Kingdom of God. Paul says :

[i]Be ye ther ...[text shortened]... gle Apostle repeats the same warning. [b]faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [/b]

Yes, something is wrong.

I think you changed horses in mid stream. We were talking about how salvation is obtained. Is one saved without works, or are works required to be saved.

I think the answer is there in Ephesians 2:8&9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved by grace plus nothing.

Originally posted by josephw
What I understand is that you are imposing your interpretation on what the verses are saying by saying they mean something other that what they're saying.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scriptures teach what they mean witho ...[text shortened]... lified and approved teachers teach the Word. By allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

What I understand is that you are imposing your interpretation on what the verses are saying by saying they mean something other that what they're saying.

The fact is that that's exactly what you've done.

Read the following explanation and reread the passage along with it:

Peter was not writing about how we should read or interpret God’s Word; he was writing about how God gave us His Word in the first place. In order to persuade his readers to pay attention to the gospel, Peter affirmed that his words were God’s words—just as much as the Old Testament prophecies were.

Peter’s meaning in verse 20 is further explained by the context: “We did not follow cleverly devised stories . . . but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. . . . We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven. . . . We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable. . . . No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will” (2 Peter 1:16–21).

Notice that Peter’s main point is not how to read and understand God’s messages. Instead, he explains the authoritative origin and source of those prophecies. It was God Himself who communicated them through His chosen spokesmen. The prophets (and Peter) did not write thoughts that they cooked up out of their own minds, but they passed on truth that came directly from God. As Peter puts it, they “spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (verse 21)

Peter’s intent was to urge his readers to take his message about Jesus seriously, as he says in verse 19, “You [therefore] will do well to pay attention to [God’s message through me], as to a light shining in a dark place.” Peter’s account of Jesus was straight from God.

Since the Bible’s words express God’s thoughts, not man’s, it is important that we respect them enough to study them and grasp what He wants us to understand as we are interpreting Scripture.

http://www.gotquestions.org/interpreting-Scripture.html

The above lays out in painstaking detail the context and meaning of the verse.

What you believe it says is plain wrong and evidently you're too prideful to admit it.

If you still believe that you're right, then explain in detail exactly what Peter is saying in 2 Peter 1:16-21 and how that supports YOUR interpretation.

Originally posted by josephw
Yes, something is wrong.

I think you changed horses in mid stream. We were talking about how salvation is obtained. Is one saved without works, or are works required to be saved.

I think the answer is there in Ephesians 2:8&9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved by grace plus nothing.

I am talking about how one gets eternal life.

You used the term salvation. Some use the word 'saved'.

Maybe we should define these.