1. Joined
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    06 Nov '17 16:00
    It is said by some that personal happiness is the one thing we choose or prefer for its own sake and not as a means to another end.

    Among alternatives we might consider truth, beauty, satori (or enlightenment), salvation, faith, freedom, etc.

    Some say that pursuing happiness for itself doesn’t work out, it is better to have a more altruistic aim than personal happiness. But people who consider themselves realists say the pursuit of happiness underlies all these supposed alternatives.

    Thoughts?
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    06 Nov '17 16:26
    Originally posted by @js357
    It is said by some that personal happiness is the one thing we choose or prefer for its own sake and not as a means to another end.
    Would you say that love is something that is a means to an end as opposed to something entered into for its own sake?
  3. Standard memberapathist
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    06 Nov '17 17:39
    Originally posted by @js357
    It is said by some that personal happiness is the one thing we choose or prefer for its own sake and not as a means to another end....
    I've often wondered, not talking about you js of course, but why exactly am I supposed to sacrifice myself for others?

    I admit I like having the option.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Nov '17 17:54
    Originally posted by @js357
    It is said by some that personal happiness is the one thing we choose or prefer for its own sake and not as a means to another end.

    Among alternatives we might consider truth, beauty, satori (or enlightenment), salvation, faith, freedom, etc.

    Some say that pursuing happiness for itself doesn’t work out, it is better to have a more altruistic aim than pe ...[text shortened]... es realists say the pursuit of happiness underlies all these supposed alternatives.

    Thoughts?
    I prefer Godliness with contentment is great gain. Harder to get if always being happy is your goal.
  5. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    06 Nov '17 19:29
    Originally posted by @apathist
    I've often wondered, not talking about you js of course, but why exactly am I supposed to sacrifice myself for others?

    I admit I like having the option.
    'Altruism raises your mood because it raises your self-esteem, which increases happiness. Plus, giving to others gets you outside of yourself and distracts you from your problems.' (Karen Salmansohn)

    Altruism isn't necessarily about 'sacrificing' yourself, and I agree that running in to a burning building to try and rescue a stranger is unlikely to make you happy. - But altruism is also about caring, and acting, for the well being of others and making the planet a better place to inhabit. (Which is more likely than not to increase your own happiness).
  6. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    06 Nov '17 20:16
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    I prefer Godliness with contentment is great gain. Harder to get if always being happy is your goal.
    Doesn't "Godliness" make you happy?
  7. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    06 Nov '17 20:18
    Originally posted by @js357
    Among alternatives we might consider truth, beauty, satori (or enlightenment), salvation, faith, freedom, etc.

    Those alternatives make those who pursue them "happy".

    I guess it comes down to definitions but ultimately
    we do things to make us happy - or at least happier.

    Even the man who gives his life to save another.
  8. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    06 Nov '17 20:25
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    ..., and I agree that running in to a burning building to try and rescue a stranger is unlikely to make you happy. - .
    Maybe not running into the burning building would ultimately make us less happy?

    Think of the counselling that disaster victims receive who feel guilty at their survival,
    isn't that part of the same thing? A kind of collectivism? Also many/most of us find
    true happiness impossible when those around* us are unhappy.

    *"around" varying from individual to individual. For some it could be close family
    for others it could be the children of the world or stray cats.
  9. Joined
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    06 Nov '17 20:341 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    I prefer Godliness with contentment is great gain. Harder to get if always being happy is your goal.
    That calls for some expansion:

    1 Timothy 6:6-10King James Version (KJV)

    6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

    7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

    8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

    9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

    10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

    End quote.

    It sound like the desire for happiness is not evil, if its proper approach is understood.
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    06 Nov '17 20:49
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Would you say that love is something that is a means to an end as opposed to something entered into for its own sake?
    Love seems like a happy accident we enjoy being in, as beloved or belover, in the long run, or at least as long as it lasts. There are varieties. Great question. More thinking required.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Nov '17 20:58
    Originally posted by @js357
    That calls for some expansion:

    1 Timothy 6:6-10King James Version (KJV)

    6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

    7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

    8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

    9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many fool ...[text shortened]... te.

    It sound like the desire for happiness is not evil, if its proper approach is understood.
    I didn’t say it was evil. What you quoted is meaningful regardless if things are going well or poorly. There is a peace with God that transcends any circumstances we find ourselves in, it isn’t as this world can give.
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    06 Nov '17 21:53
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    I didn’t say it was evil. What you quoted is meaningful regardless if things are going well or poorly. There is a peace with God that transcends any circumstances we find ourselves in, it isn’t as this world can give.
    Would that be compatible with the idea that having right intention in the eyes of God is worthy of pursuit in and for itself, even if things don’t turn out so well?
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Nov '17 23:05
    Originally posted by @js357
    Would that be compatible with the idea that having right intention in the eyes of God is worthy of pursuit in and for itself, even if things don’t turn out so well?
    You mean like good intentions paving the way to hell?
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    07 Nov '17 00:01
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    You mean like good intentions paving the way to hell?
    That’s not biblical, is it? Do you believe it? I meant what I said. Trying to get the point, that’s me. It seems to me your God would cut the well-intended a little slack, since he knows how things will go.
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    07 Nov '17 00:07
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    I prefer Godliness with contentment is great gain. Harder to get if always being happy is your goal.
    Doesn't "Godliness" make you happy?
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