Hawking: Universe happened without god.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The ironic thing here is you are like being arrogant and nasty to a few 5 year old kids, because that is the state of science now, in its infancy. In another 100 years, science will maybe be a teenager. A snot nosed teenager who will shove your dogma out of the water of your ignorance and show you exactly what the universe is made of. Till then, have fun bullying the babies.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed today?
KJ

Originally posted by RJHinds
... no big bang, but only the sound of the voice of God when he spoke every physical thing into existence,

And through what medium was the voice of god carried? Sound by definition is
vibration through a medium ... but there was no medium before god created
it ... therefore he cannot have created the first things with his voice.


Or maybe those bronze age guys who wrote the story did not know about
sound waves?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think the word nothing is beyond you.
Kelly

What "nothing" are we talking about?
The absence of matter?
The absence of matter and energy from space?
The absence of quantum effects?
The absence of space?
The absence of space and physical laws?

Which level of nothing?

Originally posted by KellyJay
So to avoid the question about where everything here comes from using God
who is not apart of this universe, you think using some mythical place is valid?
The issue I think you run into doing that is where did that place come from if it
is nothing more than another universe, if you want to say it is eternal, other
than it suits you for keeping God out o ...[text shortened]... remes"
since you are repeating yourself while claiming there are two different paths.
Kelly

One of those somethings should have been nothing. You seem toi think I either believe that everything comes from something or everything comes from nothing but the truth lies between those two extremes.

What mythical place was I using? I suppose you will be saying now that nothing or the singularity or brane colliding with another brane are mythical places. I will reply that you seek to replace my mythical place with a mythical being and we get nowhere. Except that I will answer honestly and say I haven't a clue where everything came from but I still don't need a god yet. Until I have some evidence that a god is involved I will continue to look for evidence of all sorts. As David Hilbert said "Wir müssen wissen — wir werden wissen!"

If you happen to have some evidence that a god was involved in the creation of the universe, or even that one exists, trot it out and let me see. So far all I have seen is a collection of old tales and some poorly produced YouTube videos.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
And through what medium was the voice of god carried? Sound by definition is
vibration through a medium ... but there was no medium before god created
it ... therefore he cannot have created the first things with his voice.


Or maybe those bronze age guys who wrote the story did not know about
sound waves?

The breath of God creates the medium it needs for the sound of the voice of God to vibrate through it. No problem! 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by Kepler
One of those somethings should have been nothing. You seem toi think I either believe that everything comes from something or everything comes from nothing but the truth lies between those two extremes.

What mythical place was I using? I suppose you will be saying now that nothing or the singularity or brane colliding with another brane are mythical places ...[text shortened]... So far all I have seen is a collection of old tales and some poorly produced YouTube videos.

So everything does not come from nothing, and it also does not come from
something...okay...where is the middle ground here?

I get that people don't like God because we cannot measure God, we cannot
get God to do what we want when we want, we cannot force God into anything,
and so on...and so people who dislike others from saying God does what we
cannot prove dislike God for many reasons, but that is a big one, we don't know
so God did it.

You are doing the same thing with your mythical universe that somehow
reached into nothing and became something here which I again would like you
to explain, where in the nothing did this something from somewhere else
that wasn’t a part of here or what wasn’t here before appear?

You really don't make sense to me, you claim you do not have a clue how it
all happened, yet....the two possible ways it could have you reject both without
a clue as to how it did.

For me to tell you why I believe God did it is a matter of faith on my part I
cannot prove it if your looking for proof, I'll share why if you want to know,
but don't look for an iron clad proof...anything anyone says about the distant
past will either be accepted or rejected on faith not proof in my opinion.
Kelly

Originally posted by wolfgang59
What "nothing" are we talking about?
The absence of matter?
The absence of matter and energy from space?
The absence of quantum effects?
The absence of space?
The absence of space and physical laws?

Which level of nothing?

Nothing is what it says, nothing.
In programming you can have an undefined variable, it can be anything later
on a word, a number, a book, a library whatever you want, until you put some
value there it is undefined, until anything is put there its an empty place holder
which is much more than nothing. Nothing as soon as you start to define it
give it shape you've added to it and therefore turned it into something, in your
case you've just created a variable that is emptied of space, of matter, energy,
laws and are asking me if this place holder is nothing. A place holder is
something therefore not nothing. You put laws there even without matter or
energy you have something, take away all something’s, and you have nothing,
anything else is something.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Nothing is what it says, nothing.
Kelly

Calm down!
I haven't entered the discussion yet and was just asking for a definition. And the best you can come up with is
Nothing is what it says, nothing

I even gave you some ideas ... 😞

Originally posted by RJHinds
The breath of God creates the medium it needs for the sound of the voice of God to vibrate through it. No problem! 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

So as well as there being a god before all creation there was also god's breath.
Brilliant.

How did he create that?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Calm down!
I haven't entered the discussion yet and was just asking for a definition. And the best you can come up with is
Nothing is what it says, nothing

I even gave you some ideas ... 😞

I responded beyond that if you care to look.
Kelly

Originally posted by wolfgang59
So as well as there being a god before all creation there was also god's breath.
Brilliant.

How did he create that?

God did not create the breath of God. The breath of God is another way of saying the Holy Spirit, which is God and has always existed, as did the Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

(John 1:1-4 NKJV)

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by KellyJay
So everything does not come from nothing, and it also does not come from
something...okay...where is the middle ground here?

I get that people don't like God because we cannot measure God, we cannot
get God to do what we want when we want, we cannot force God into anything,
and so on...and so people who dislike others from saying God does what we
can ...[text shortened]... distant
past will either be accepted or rejected on faith not proof in my opinion.
Kelly

So everything does not come from nothing, and it also does not come from
something...okay...where is the middle ground here?

Some things come from some other things, some things don't. There, that's between the two extremes.


I get that people don't like God because we cannot measure God, we cannot
get God to do what we want when we want, we cannot force God into anything,
and so on...and so people who dislike others from saying God does what we
cannot prove dislike God for many reasons, but that is a big one, we don't know
so God did it.

If I don't know a thing why must I paper over the gap in my knowledge with god? If I don't know where my car keys are should I just shrug, say "god hid them for a reason" and then walk instead?


You are doing the same thing with your mythical universe that somehow
reached into nothing and became something here which I again would like you
to explain, where in the nothing did this something from somewhere else
that wasn’t a part of here or what wasn’t here before appear?

You are now claiming the universe is mythical? Ummmm OK. You do know what mythical means don't you?


You really don't make sense to me, you claim you do not have a clue how it
all happened, yet....the two possible ways it could have you reject both without
a clue as to how it did.

I haven't a clue how the universe began. I am aware of numerous hypotheses (I'll not grant them the status of scientific theory because they are not testable) such as a single big bang, multiple big bangs in a cyclic universe, ekpyrotic universes and even various shades of creation by god or gods. Just because I don't know which one of those it is, or possibly something else entirely, doesn't mean I have to choose your god and your version of events. Personally, until evidence to the contrary comes along, I am going with the very ancient Egyptian creation myth where the universe is the result of a god masturbating.

For me to tell you why I believe God did it is a matter of faith on my part I
cannot prove it if your looking for proof, I'll share why if you want to know,
but don't look for an iron clad proof...anything anyone says about the distant
past will either be accepted or rejected on faith not proof in my opinion.
Kelly

How can I put this so you will understand? I probably can't but here goes anyway. Evidence IS NOT proof. I don't want proof. All I want is some evidence. Until I have some evidence for how the universe began I will simply continue saying I do not know because I do not know. Anything else is dishonest. I see no reason at all to assume that any and all gaps in my knowledge must be filled with god. A gap in knowledge is just that, a gap in knowledge, not a terrible disaster that must be fixed NOW! It doesn't need to be filled today, the ship of science will not sink because there is currently a hole.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think the word nothing is beyond you.
Kelly

ah sorry, i missed this snotty little response. go back and read my post. did i use the word 'nothing'?

Originally posted by Kepler
[b]So everything does not come from nothing, and it also does not come from
something...okay...where is the middle ground here?

Some things come from some other things, some things don't. There, that's between the two extremes.


I get that people don't like God because we cannot measure God, we cannot
get God to do what we want when we want, w ...[text shortened]... d today, the ship of science will not sink because there is currently a hole.

There is no middle ground with God. You are defintely one of those humanist, if not an outright atheist. It appears that God has hardened your heart. Prepare yourself for Hellfire. You have been warned.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holly! Holly! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is no middle ground with God. You are defintely one of those humanist, if not an outright atheist. It appears that God has hardened your heart. Prepare yourself for Hellfire. You have been warned.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holly! Holly! Holy!

to your mind who has harder hearts liberal humanists or right-wing christians?