He 3:4

Originally posted by sonship
Explain to me the "one-sided" Christian story. Why do you say it is only "one-sided." ?

The entire issue is whether Jehovah God, as Creator, has the right to rule over His Creation.
In question also is whether His rule over mankind is good.
He selected the Nation of Israel (of old) to be His witnesses to the rightfulness of His rulership over them.
When they followed His way (theMosaic Law Covenant) they succeeded.
When they fell away it was disaster.
Being witnesses to His rightness subsequently fell to the Christian Congregation
Acts says, "God turned His attention to the people of the nations to take out of them a people for His name."
The people of the world today are proving that not living according to God's rightful rulership brings disaster.
There are many like the one you mentioned that are obsfucators.
It doesn't matter because God's way is still right.
and (Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Originally posted by roigam
The entire issue is whether Jehovah God, as Creator, has the right to rule over His Creation.
In question also is whether His rule over mankind is good.

You are confusing a number of different concepts and mostly just making wild assertions.
To talk of 'legal rights' one must talk of laws. What are laws? Who makes them?
To talk of 'good' is another matter altogether. Law and goodness are not the same thing at all.
What constitutes 'good'? Who decides?
Ultimately both laws and 'good' are subjective and I can perfectly well claim that it is not legal under some laws for God to have absolute rule (in fact that would be self contradictory anyway as absolute rule implies being above the law).
I can also claim that by my judgement such absolute rule would only be good in certain circumstances - if he was a good ruler - but then we come to something of a tautology.

Certainly if you want to make actual sense you need to flesh out your claims in more rational language. As it is, it looks like you just want to make assertions and feel good about yourself for having done so.

Originally posted by twhitehead... As it is, it looks like you just want to make assertions and feel good about yourself for having done so.

Or, he was answering a question.

Originally posted by roigam
He 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.
The universe is God's creation, His intellectual property, so legally He can do whatever He wants to do with it (including us), or for it.

What He wants to do is: (1 Timothy 2:4) whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accu ...[text shortened]... turn to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

So tell me, what is your question or your comment for this thread?

The bottom line of all the scripture is plainly - love God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

It is written in the scripture, "Where your heart is, there your treasure will be to" . What I take from this is, that if you love God, you will be with Him to.

So in understanding Rev 21:4, being in love with God, He will already be with you.

Originally posted by apathist
Or, God finds itself in this world, it didn't create the world, but it is hungry and it eats souls. Finding souls to eat is much easier if they are tricked into its lair.

Satan doesn't eat souls, so it left the lair and now provides safe haven for free-thinking souls. The celebration is in hell. Doom is in heaven.

Easy on the comics.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are confusing a number of different concepts and mostly just making wild assertions.
To talk of 'legal rights' one must talk of laws. What are laws? Who makes them?
To talk of 'good' is another matter altogether. Law and goodness are not the same thing at all.
What constitutes 'good'? Who decides?
Ultimately both laws and 'good' are subjective an ...[text shortened]... it looks like you just want to make assertions and feel good about yourself for having done so.

God makes laws.
Whether God's rule is "good" is dependent on whether it produces a
beneficial way of life for whoever follow His laws.
law and goodness are not the same.
right laws produce good ways of living, better people.
Those who have followed God's laws have done better than those who do not.
If we look at the world which in general does not follow God's laws, we can see that
they do not in general have a good way of life.
They may have many excuses for this but the main reason is found at
(Luke 4:6) Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
Jehovah God gave authority over mankind and the Earth for a limited period of time to
Satan to prove that Satan's rule would not succeed.
Now the question has been answered and Jehovah has the right to bring an end to
this unsuccessful way of life at any time.
Jesus Christ gave us the signs of the last days and we see them in our day.

Originally posted by roigam
Jehovah God gave authority over mankind and the Earth for a limited period of time to Satan to prove that Satan's rule would not succeed..

Can you provide a scripture, preferably more than one, to support this specific claim about God's specific motivations for satan's rule?

Originally posted by roigam
Jesus Christ gave us the signs of the last days and we see them in our day.

Do you accept that the Jehovah's Witness organisation has a track record for getting predictions related to the lasts days and the return of Christ, spectacularly wrong?

Originally posted by roigam
The entire issue is whether Jehovah God, as Creator, has the right to rule over His Creation.
In question also is whether His rule over mankind is good.
He selected the Nation of Israel (of old) to be His witnesses to the rightfulness of His rulership over them.
When they followed His way (theMosaic Law Covenant) they succeeded.
When they fell away it was ...[text shortened]... the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

The entire issue is whether Jehovah God, as Creator, has the right to rule over His Creation.

What about God dispensing Himself into His saved people ?

Don't you see the living God reigning from WITHIN His people by being the indwelling Spirit flowing out of their innermost being?

The scene of the eternal city shows the water of life pouring out of the throne of God. This throne is surely the seat of His rulership and authority.

" And he showed me a river of water of life, right as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (Rev. 22:1)

This picture shows God reigning by flowing divine life as the Holy Spirit out of the seat of His and the Lamb's authority. The street goes exactly the way the river of life flows.

This river of water of life is the same living Spirit which Christ spoke of as rivers flowing out of the innermost being. That is the Spirit of Christ living in and flowing out of those who receive Christ into their being.

"He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

But this he said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:38,39)

The Triune God reigns in His eternal city by establishing His throne in the innermost being of His redeemed people. This is about God living in man. This is about God minding with man.

You should put "out the throne of God and of the Lamb" with "out of his innermost being"

It is about God ruling. But it is about HOW God rules by being the inner divine life dispensed into man and flowing out of man.

cont. below

cont. with roigam

In question also is whether His rule over mankind is good.

Of course God's government if good. It is more than good. It is life. The Triune God wants to dispense Himself as life to man.

I showed you above the scene in eternity. Out of the throne of government pours the river of water of life, bright as crystal, right down the middle of the street of the New Jerusalem.

This symbolism shows that the WALK of the saved is according to the flowing of God Himself as divine life and nature from out of their innermost being. It is the street of gold - the street of the divine nature of the Father. And this street goes exactly the way the river of life flows.

By comparing this to John 7:38,39 it proves the whole city is produced by the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God, flowing out of the innermost being of those who "received Him".

As many as "received Him" God gave authority to become children of God, who were BORN of God. (John 1:12,13)

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,

Who were BEGOTTEN not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

The eternal city is of God mingled with man, being the inner divine life of man's innermost being.

I am not sure why you speak of obfuscating below unless because you cannot SEE what the New Testament is teaching, you feel it is "obfuscating".

What I have shown you in pictures I can also show you in very plain teaching.

You have to realize that Jesus Christ is God come as the mingling of God and man.
And you have to receive Him as God and stop rejecting Him behind the false teaching that Christ is only an angel.

And you have to believe that Christ can come into you as the Holy Spirit. At least believe that mysteriously you can "receive Him" to be "begotten" of God.

Christ became a life giving Spirit in His resurrection to be able to impart Himself into us as He cleanses us from every and all of our sins.

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Don't you realize the this "river of water of life" is Christ Himself in His form as "a life giving Spirit" ?

" And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (Rev. 22:1)

So we have a revelation of the Triune God here. God the Father in the Redeeming Son, the Lamb upon "the throne of God and of the Lamb". That is a singular "throne".

And pouring out of the throne is the Third of the Triune God - the Spirit. That is God in the Lamb as the Spirit of life, the life giving Spirit. God reigns in eternity from man's innermost being by dispensing Himself into man.

Put another way, God wants to mass produce sons of God with His life and nature, Christ being the Firstborn Son of many brothers.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Rom. 8:29,30)

cont.

Originally posted by roigam

When they followed His way (theMosaic Law Covenant) they succeeded.

The law was given really to expose man. Man after the fall thinks he is ok. God puts this law of God upon him to expose to man what God already knows.

That is man nature has been corrupted, near ruined, or damaged, fallen. This law of Moses exposes man's inability to live up to the moral requirement of God completely.

The law of God is similar to an X-ray on a cancer patient to expose the cancer disease dwelling in his body. The descendents of Adam do not realize that the innocency, the goodness of the created humanity has been polluted and damaged by an evil foreign element that has gotten into us.

The law of God is good and spiritual and holy. But man is fallen and constituted with a sin nature. I will probably be describing this much more in a thread expounding on Romans 7 and 8.

There is a salvation in God dispensing Himself into man as "a life giving Spirit" .

Compare these two verses. One says a law of Moses could not give life.
The other says that Christ Himself became a life giving Spirit.

The law of Moses is good, yet it could not give divine life:

" Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law." (Galatians 3:21)

The Son of God in resurrection became a life giving Spirit to impart God Himself into His redeemed people:

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

This life giving Spirit is Jesus Christ Himself in a form in which He can be blended and mingled with our being. He is also called "the Spirit of life" . And He Himself is a stronger law. He is a law of a godly victorious living which saves us from the wretched self condemnation of always falling short of trying to keep the law of Moses.

"There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Rom. 8:1,2)

I wrote a song to this passage:

https://soundcloud.com/jack-wilmore/life-and-peace-rom-81-2-6?in=jack-wilmore/sets/weapons-of-righteousness

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you accept that the Jehovah's Witness organisation has a track record for getting predictions related to the lasts days and the return of Christ, spectacularly wrong?

Bump for roigam.

Originally posted by divegeester
Can you provide a scripture, preferably more than one, to support this specific claim about God's specific motivations for satan's rule?

Yes, several come to mind.
(Genesis 3:1) Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
(Genesis 3:4, 5) At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”
Here in the Garden of Eden the Devil was challenging the righteousness and the rightfulness of Jehovah God's sovereignty.
In effect the Devil was saying that Jehovah was withholding freedom from mankind that would contribute to their happiness. He was also questioning whether mankind's ability to govern their affairs and continue living was dependent on their obedience to God.
In addition the Devil questioned if Jehovah was dishonest in saying that disobedience would lead to death. And so, in effect the Devil was questioning whether God really had the right to rule over mankind.

Jehovah could have wiped the Devil and Adam and Eve out and started over, but, that would not have answered the questions that were raised.
Jehovah's entire angelic organization would not have had an answer and some at least would have also rebelled as the Devil did.

Since the Devil's assignment was to cover (or administer) the Earth and mankind Jehovah did not destroy him.
(Ezekiel 28:13-16) You were in Eʹden, the garden of God. You were adorned with every precious stone —Ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrysʹo·lite, onyx, and jade; sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; And their settings and mountings were made of gold. They were prepared on the day you were created. 14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16 Because of your abundant trade, You became filled with violence, and you began to sin. So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.
Jehovah let him live to answer the questions he raised.

That is why the Devil could tempt Jesus at
(Luke 4:5, 6) So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
Note that Jesus did not deny that the Devil had that authority!
Jesus said further
(John 12:31) Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. and
(John 14:30) I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me. and
(John 16:11) then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
So, in essence Jehovah had motivation to allow the Devil to live in order to prove out the righteousness and the rightness of His rule

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you accept that the Jehovah's Witness organisation has a track record for getting predictions related to the lasts days and the return of Christ, spectacularly wrong?

We are imperfect people as everyone is.
We continue to study the Bible and learn as no doubt you do also.
Sometimes the Bible reveals things that will take place but does not give the time.
In our anxious anticipation of good things we know will occur we "jump the gun" as they say in track meets.
The only "prediction" I know of personally is concerning 1975.
The JW publications never said the end would come in that year, but, I know individual JW's who felt strongly that it would.
They ran ahead and told many that the end would come in that year.
After further study they realized that it was not to be yet as much more preaching needed to be done.
As christians we still look for the end in harmony with Jesus' warning
(Matthew 24:42) Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Yes, the Israelites were witnesses in that God blessed them when they followed the Law (to the best of their ability). and yes, the law was given to show that no man can live up to God's law perfectly.
It was a tutor leading to the Christ.

Other than that, did you discern who the two groups are yet?
(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.