1. Joined
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    23 Sep '16 07:42
    He 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.
    The universe is God's creation, His intellectual property, so legally He can do whatever He wants to do with it (including us), or for it.

    What He wants to do is: (1 Timothy 2:4) whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

    He also will do away with death: (Revelation 21:4) And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    We cannot argue with God legally and He loves us and wants good for us. Why should we refuse the good He wants for us?

    Besides that, when people die they believe they go to haven. When God does away with death, how can people go to heaven?
    Is it possible that when we die we just go into the Grave?
    (Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
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    23 Sep '16 07:511 edit
    Originally posted by roigam
    He 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.
    The universe is God's creation, His intellectual property, so legally He can do whatever He wants to do with it (including us), or for it.

    What He wants to do is: (1 Timothy 2:4) whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accu ...[text shortened]... turn to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    It could be argued that doing away with death is not a good thing.

    For example in sonship's and many of the other Christians who post in here, religious world... there will be the billions of poor schmucks in hell who are supernaturally kept alive while the inferno melts the flesh from their bones for eternity while Jesus and his angels spectate the unbelievable holocaust.
  3. Joined
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    23 Sep '16 07:51
    Sorry did I disrupt the flow....?
  4. Joined
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    23 Sep '16 07:581 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    It could be argued that doing away with death is not a good thing.

    For example in sonship's and many of the other Christians who post in here, religious world... there will be the billions of poor schmucks in hell who are supernaturally kept alive while the inferno melts the flesh from their bones for eternity while Jesus and his angels spectate the unbelievable holocaust.
    Another deception. Hell is just the common Grave of mankind.
    (Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    Fire is a symbol for irreversable destruction.
    It's true many will go off on the broad road to destruction. They will lose their life.

    It could be said that they are like Saul before he was converted to true Christianity,
    they kick against the goads.
    They will return to the dust.
  5. Standard memberapathist
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    23 Sep '16 09:00
    Originally posted by roigam...
    The universe is God's creation, His intellectual property, so legally He can do whatever He wants to do with it (including us), or for it....
    "legally". You imply that God's actions should conform with human law.

    If that isn't what you meant, then your argument is merely that might makes right.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    23 Sep '16 11:34
    Originally posted by roigam
    He 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.
    The universe is God's creation, His intellectual property, so legally He can do whatever He wants to do with it (including us), or for it.

    What He wants to do is: (1 Timothy 2:4) whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accu ...[text shortened]... turn to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    You are ignoring what Jesus said - only God can kill the soul. Man can only kill the body. Clearly body and soul are two separate and distinct aspects of the man. The body goes to the grave and the soul goes back to God.

    I know you will quote the passages where body and soul are used interchangeably but they mean different things.

    The reason for all the confusion in doctrine in Christianity is that people do not listen to Christ. The most accurate of Bible teaches is Jesus Christ, He is the only authority that gives accurate knowledge of the truth.
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    23 Sep '16 12:37
    Originally posted by roigam

    It could be said that they are like Saul before he was converted to true Christianity,
    they kick against the goads.
    They will return to the dust.
    Hey, lay off the goads.
  8. Joined
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    23 Sep '16 15:38
    Originally posted by apathist
    "legally". You imply that God's actions should conform with human law.

    If that isn't what you meant, then your argument is merely that might makes right.
    His actions conform to universal laws. Man only knows some of these laws.
    We have much to learn.

    When Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden of Eden, God could have ended their lives
    and started over. He didn't. He showed loyal love for His creation. Loyal love is one of the best laws in the universe.
    God established His legal rights as Creator in a court case against Satan and mankind.

    (Hosea 4:1) Hear the word of Jehovah, O people of Israel, For Jehovah has a legal case against the inhabitants of the land, Because there is no truth nor loyal love nor knowledge of God in the land.

    It's true that God is Almighty (He made the Sun among other things) but He follows the
    universal laws so that order can be maintained in His Creation.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    23 Sep '16 16:56
    Originally posted by roigam
    He 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.


    Is the point of using the verse only to show that God has ownership over the universe ?

    That would be peculiar to me because the writer says the house of God is the people belonging to the Son of God. In other words the main burden of the verse seems not simply to be God is the creator and owner of the universeb but that within this universe He has a special relationship with those who belong to the Son - they are His house.

    "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God (v.4)... But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end." (v.6)


    Within His created universe there is a special entity which is God's house. And they are the Son's redeemed, sanctified, and indwelt people.

    You seem to be giving lip service the biblical fact of God's house, yet I think all you are really interested in is God's universe.


    The universe is God's creation, His intellectual property, so legally He can do whatever He wants to do with it (including us), or for it.


    That is certainly true. However it is peculiar that many many other passages could be used to demonstrate this. Why did you choose one that ends up being about an entity WITHIN the universe - the house of the Son ? That is the church.


    What He wants to do is: (1 Timothy 2:4) whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.


    This is true.

    " [Our Savior God] Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth."


    That is First Timothy 2:4. But in the very same book, "the house of God" is "the church of the living God" .

    You started this thread with a reference to God's house. But so far upon close examination, you are not really concerned with God's house, the Son's house, or the church of the living God. You are concerned simply with God's universe over which He has ownership and right.

    The EKKLESIA - (the called out assembly) is a corporate vessel of the mingling of God and man. This is the full knowledge of the truth. That is the truth that God desires to dispense Himself into man for the building up of His house within the created universe.

    "But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:14,15)


    The full knowledge of the truth MUST concern "the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the PILLAR and BASE of the truth."

    You started this thread with reference to the Son's house in Hebrews 3:4. You continue with a word about God wanting men to come to the knowledge of the truth. But I question if "the truth" you speak of neglects the "pillar and base" which HOLDS UP the truth - the house of God.

    The eternal plan of God is to have a living house filled with the living God - the church. This is the pillar of the truth. And this is the base of the truth.

    It appears that you are only giving passing lip service to the matter of the church. But your real aim is just to speak of a blessed universe. This is how Jehovah's Witnesses think.

    You do not appreciate that Jesus Christ was the house of God - meaning the prototype of God mingled with man. And His eternal purpose is to expand and enlarge this house of God into New Jerusalem.


    He also will do away with death: (Revelation 21:4) And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


    That may meet MAN's dire need. What about the NEED of God ?
    What you emphasize may meet MAN'S need to be blessed, happy, fortunate in God's creation.

    What about God's need to make for HIMSELF a dwelling place in humanity so that the church becomes the dwelling place of God as His habitation ?

    " In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:21,22)


    As I have shown, this habitation of God, this dwelling place of God in man is "the pillar and base of the truth."


    We cannot argue with God legally and He loves us and wants good for us. Why should we refuse the good He wants for us?

    Besides that, when people die they believe they go to haven. When God does away with death, how can people go to heaven?
    Is it possible that when we die we just go into the Grave?


    There is not much difference in the superficial believe that God wants to take people to heaven forever, and the superficial belief that God only wants a blessed earth for man to be happy on.

    The [b]"pillar and base of the truth"{/b] is the church, the house of the living God. The temple growing up where God and man are united and mingled as one.


    (Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”


    These things you write are not wrong. But they are very short of the goal of God's house, God's living temple, God dwelling in His habitation as the church of the living God.
  10. Joined
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    01 Oct '16 20:44
    Yes there is a spiritual "house" but when it says He created "all" things it covers that.
    Many times in the Bible the literal will refer to a higher spiritual meaning.
    i.e. the literal lamb in Egypt that represented the "Lamb of God" that would be sacrificed to provide a chance for everlasting life for all mankind that would put faith in the provision.
    After all this it is still in every last jot and tittle Jehovah's creation and His Law that counts.
    We are His Creation, His intellectual property, and He has the legal right to do with us and for us whatever He chooses, wouldn't you agree?
  11. Standard membersonship
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    01 Oct '16 20:56
    Originally posted by roigam
    Yes there is a spiritual "house" but when it says He created "all" things it covers that.
    Many times in the Bible the literal will refer to a higher spiritual meaning.
    i.e. the literal lamb in Egypt that represented the "Lamb of God" that would be sacrificed to provide a chance for everlasting life for all mankind that would put faith in the provision.
    Aft ...[text shortened]... ty, and He has the legal right to do with us and for us whatever He chooses, wouldn't you agree?
    Yes. I would agree.
    But He cannot do with us as HE pleases always because of the refusal of human consent and will.

    Then what He does with us is not at all His perfect will and does not make Him happy to do what His righteous and holy nature requires that He do with us.

    Now, you said something interesting about the lamb of God in Exodus.
    Tell me, as you look over the contents of each chapter of the book of Exodus how many chapters would you say are dedicated to describing the design of God's tabernacle ?

    Just give me a rough chapter count.
  12. Standard memberapathist
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    02 Oct '16 00:53
    Originally posted by roigam
    His actions conform to universal laws. Man only knows some of these laws.
    We have much to learn.

    When Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden of Eden, God could have ended their lives
    and started over. He didn't. He showed loyal love for His creation. Loyal love is one of the best laws in the universe.
    God established His legal rights as Creator in a cour ...[text shortened]... her things) but He follows the
    universal laws so that order can be maintained in His Creation.
    Or, God finds itself in this world, it didn't create the world, but it is hungry and it eats souls. Finding souls to eat is much easier if they are tricked into its lair.

    Satan doesn't eat souls, so it left the lair and now provides safe haven for free-thinking souls. The celebration is in hell. Doom is in heaven.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    02 Oct '16 08:452 edits
    roigam, see how brazenly rebellious some men can be ?

    This is why we must simply not add to or subtract from His word as He warns in Revelation 22:19 of that tough book. Human attempts to make God's revelation more "palatable" to sinners will often be met with contempt. Trying to soften the pure word in any place will not be met with appreciation from the forces of darkness but just greater rebellion and contempt.

    " I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll.

    And it anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll." (Rev. 22:18,19)


    So we should not trust any well intentioned human effort to make eternal judgment more likable to the unbeliever. The wolf turns and attacks. The pig wallows in the mud. Of some men, their own rebellious nature, will simply swallow them up.

    This foolish poster takes darkness for light, evil for good, bitter for sweet. He's bold to boast of turning things upside down.

    " Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20,21)


    Can you see how this braggart only despises your human attempt to "air condition hell"? It only fuels his sense of revolt. This to him is "free" in "free thinking" and an coming to join Satan and his angels at a party of enjoyment.

    "Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)


    That's where this fool wants to be. You can tell him about a happy earth with butterflies and singing birds all you wish. You can tell him God would not send men to that which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. He's bold about it all the more.

    So it is better not to subtract from or add to God's word. You are not doing either God or man any favors to tamper with His word.

    " Behold then the kindness and severity of God ..." (Rom. 11:22a)


    Not to teach His kindness only. Not to teach His severity only. But both must be plainly taught - "the kindness and severity of God."
  14. Standard memberapathist
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    02 Oct '16 10:05
    There are sides to every story. Haven't you noticed how one-sided the christian story is?

    I don't want the gods to eat me. I'll pinch your nose off first.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    02 Oct '16 11:37
    Originally posted by apathist
    There are sides to every story. Haven't you noticed how one-sided the christian story is?

    I don't want the gods to eat me. I'll pinch your nose off first.
    Explain to me the "one-sided" Christian story. Why do you say it is only "one-sided." ?
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