Originally posted by whodey
How many of the witnesses of the Pelennor fields gave their lives for their testimony? As for the witnesses of the resurrection of Christ, we know of 12 ready and willing to die for thier testimony.

Peter was crucified by Nero upside down on Vatican hill. He was then later rumored to have been buried on Vatican hill. You remeber Peter don't you? He as ...[text shortened]... s St. John was the only one not marytred, however, he was later exiled to Patmos for his faith.

and we know this how? Ah yes...the Bible says so, that's how we know! I could pull the same sort of chite from the LoTR; indeed far more than 12 gave their lives that day on the Pelennor fields to fight for the freedom you enjoy today, a world free from the evil of Sauron and his dark minions.

Moreover, even if they did give their lives; it could well be the case that they were dunderheaded fallguys for the people who wanted to propogate the nonsense about Jesus (without wanting to be killed themselves) and were paid off with some "magic beans" or whatever.

Originally posted by Agerg
and we know this how? Ah yes...the Bible says so, that's how we know! I could pull the same sort of chite from the LoTR; indeed far more than 12 gave their lives that day on the Pelennor fields to fight for the freedom you enjoy today, a world free from the evil of Sauron and his dark minions.

Moreover, even if they did give their lives; it could well be th ...[text shortened]... thout wanting to be killed themselves) and were paid off with some "magic beans" or whatever.

Acutually the Bible gives very few hints as to what happened to the 12. What I provided is information from a book called, "The Search for the Twelve Apostles", by William Steuart McBirnie, who has a PhD and did some study into the matter.

Originally posted by Agerg
[Moreover, even if they did give their lives; it could well be the case that they were dunderheaded fallguys for the people who wanted to propogate the nonsense about Jesus (without wanting to be killed themselves) and were paid off with some "magic beans" or whatever.[/b]

Dunderheaded fallguys who established churches and ministries that ended up evangalizing the world? Paid in magic beans? Hmmm?

Originally posted by whodey
Acutually the Bible gives very few hints as to what happened to the 12. What I provided is information from a book called, "The Search for the Twelve Apostles", by William Steuart McBirnie, who has a PhD and did some study into the matter.

I see, and what references did this person with a PhD use to produce this account? Hearsay? The Bible? Personal bias? Imagination??? 😕

Originally posted by twhitehead
So they either did not know where he was buried, or the body disappeared. What say you? Which theory do you favor?
I favor the theory that the whole story was made up at a later date.

Well at least you conceed that the Jews had no idea where the body went to. For this, there is no debate. Why then do you debate as to whether the Jews accused the disciples of "stealing" the body and making up the resurrection. I think this is a no brainer. Of course that is what they thought and even you seem to conceed as much.

Originally posted by whodey
Dunderheaded fallguys who established churches and ministries that ended up evangalizing the world? Paid in magic beans? Hmmm?

you know *they* did this how?

Originally posted by Agerg
I see, and what references did this person with a PhD use to produce this account? Hearsay? The Bible? Personal bias? Imagination??? 😕

He took the apostles sworn affidavit's coupled by their genetic tissue samples and live DVD recorded deaths to boot in a movie called, "Apostles gone wild".

No actually, he did research before the computer era. He searched for stories about the 12 which took him to vaious libraries around the world such as in Jerusalem, Rome, and London. He grabbed every book he could find on the matter and then traveled to those sights to try and corroborate these findings. For example, he once traveled to the mountains of Lebanon to check out rumors that St. Jude had originally been buried there. Upon his investigations, this was not the case. He has also sought out reported scpulchres that claim to have the remains of the apsotles and traced their reported journys. This was done to trace the traditions of their origins so they could be investigated.

Originally posted by Agerg
you know *they* did this how?

The message spread world wide didn't it? If not from the apostles, then how?

Originally posted by whodey
The message spread world wide didn't it? If not from the apostles, then how?

Erm...people who think like you got the ball rolling and then as sheep mentality crystalised in the minds of the masses -the process snowballed in just the same way as it has done for Islam, and may soon happen for Scientology?

Or otherwise even if they were directly responsible for setting up churches and spreading the nonsense you now believe, that doesn't rule out the case someone else was pulling the strings. I'm sure from a political perspective, uniting the masses under one banner has a number of advantages.

Originally posted by whodey
He took the apostles sworn affidavit's coupled by their genetic tissue samples and live DVD recorded deaths to boot in a movie called, "Apostles gone wild".

No actually, he did research before the computer era. He searched for stories about the 12 which took him to vaious libraries around the world such as in Jerusalem, Rome, and London. He grabbed every ...[text shortened]... urnys. This was done to trace the traditions of their origins so they could be investigated.

If I travelled around the world and read many books about astrology and tarot reading, spoke to many practitioners of the 'art', visited some sites where the early practitioners started off the craft, would that make any books I wrote about it more plausible? What he has is nought more than a composition of hearsay and bias - no smoking gun.

Originally posted by Agerg
If I travelled around the world and read many books about astrology and tarot reading, spoke to many practitioners of the 'art', visited some sites where the early practitioners started off the craft, would that make any books I wrote about it more plausible? What he has is nought more than a composition of hearsay and bias - no smoking gun.

You say this without even knowing evidence he has come across?

Originally posted by Agerg
Erm...people who think like you got the ball rolling and then as sheep mentality crystalised in the minds of the masses -the process snowballed in just the same way as it has done for Islam, and may soon happen for Scientology?

Or otherwise even if they were directly responsible for setting up churches and spreading the nonsense you now believe, that doesn' ...[text shortened]... from a political perspective, uniting the masses under one banner has a number of advantages.

So at least you conceed that these 12 you call "morons" did suceed in helping to successfuly evangalize the world.

I tell ya, its like pulling teeth!!! 😀

Originally posted by whodey
You say this without even knowing evidence he has come across?

Then perhaps you can grace us with an account of the significant evidence he has. As I said I could do the same thing as he has done for a book about horoscopes.

Originally posted by whodey
So at least you conceed that these 12 you call "morons" did suceed in helping to successfuly evangalize the world.

I tell ya, its like pulling teeth!!! 😀

I "conceded" no such thing; moreover, *you* are helping to evangelize the world...so what??? 😕

Originally posted by whodey
Well at least you conceed that the Jews had no idea where the body went to.

I concede no such thing. Where did you get that idea?

For this, there is no debate.
Yes there is. I am not convinced you have proven your case. All we have is third hand reports that the Christians were liars which was part of a debate between Christians and Jews possibly a hundred years after the event.

Why then do you debate as to whether the Jews accused the disciples of "stealing" the body and making up the resurrection.
I do not debate that some Jews have done so. I am sure some still do. But these are not Jews who were present at the time. They are not Jews who could, as you claimed, have gone to have a look for the body. You seem to be having trouble understanding dates.