@fmf saidIf you choose not to drive your own ship, and instead choose to be buffeted by the winds of change and the gusts of indecision, then that also is your choice.
No I didn't.
I have spoken about it often and at length. You must have missed it.
No. I did not chose to lose my faith.
I choose to direct my life by tacking with the wind toward my destination. If you can't do that, that is your choice as well. Do not claim that you finding yourself shipwrecked on a foreign shore is not your choice; it may not be your intent, but you chose to do nothing to avoid it, as well.
@suzianne saidThis notion may apply to sailing a ship in windy conditions but it is a dud, psychologically speaking, as analogies go when it comes to matters of faith. My loss of faith did not happen in circumstances that can be described as being "buffeted by ... winds ... and gusts".
If you choose not to drive your own ship, and instead choose to be buffeted by the winds of change and the gusts of indecision, then that also is your choice.
@suzianne saidThis is becoming a tortured analogy.
I choose to direct my life by tacking with the wind toward my destination. If you can't do that, that is your choice as well. Do not claim that you finding yourself shipwrecked on a foreign shore is not your choice; it may not be your intent, but you chose to do nothing to avoid it, as well.
@fmf saidI wonder if theists are prone to this sort of epistemological FAIL because, if belief in God is not something one can simply choose to do, then it doesn't make sense for God to punish the people who do not believe, and their soteriology crumbles to the ground.
I have explained countless times that I did not "choose to do nothing to avoid" losing my faith.
@fmf saidFaith is a matter of trust fidelity; it can be in people, systems, schools of thought, God, or all of the above there is nothing magical about the word; it isn't a religious word only, it is descriptive of how we see things, we believe, therefore. It doesn't matter how; some lose faith due to bad things happening; they lost their faith bottom line. Some lose faith due to good things happening; bottom line, they lost their faith.
This notion may apply to sailing a ship in windy conditions but it is a dud, psychologically speaking, as analogies go when it comes to matters of faith. My loss of faith did not happen in circumstances that can be described as being "buffeted by ... winds ... and gusts".
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@bigdogg saidGod’s punishment is based on the evil we do and are. God being good is the standard, for many, they can’t even comprehend the goodness of God! Others just barely have an inkling of, if there even is such a thing as goodness, they are so far away from it.
I wonder if theists are prone to this sort of epistemological FAIL because, if belief in God is not something one can simply choose to do, then it doesn't make sense for God to punish the people who do not believe, and their soteriology crumbles to the ground.
@kellyjay saidYou are one who thinks that all one needs to do is 'accept Jesus as savior' to be saved, yes?
God’s punishment is based on the evil we do and are. God being good is the standard, for many, they can’t even comprehend the goodness of God! Others just barely have an inkling of, if there even is such a thing as goodness, they are so far away from it.
In that setup, I contend that the punishment is no longer based on evil deeds in any way whatsoever.
@bigdogg saidI believe God’s method of redemption isn’t man made. If it were we would look good on some level where we earn our way into God’s favor. Instead the guilty must come for forgiveness and offer the same for all who sinned against us. Human pride has to be shunned and self-righteousness given up. Coming to Jesus to make Him our Lord and Savior costs us everything, it is not a just do this your in good formula. Life is more complex than that!
You are one who thinks that all one needs to do is 'accept Jesus as savior' to be saved, yes?
In that setup, I contend that the punishment is no longer based on evil deeds in any way whatsoever.
Evil will be dealt with in full either by Jesus Christ’s grace or we stand before God in our sins.
@kellyjay said"If it were we would look good on some level where we earn our way into God’s favor."
I believe God’s method of redemption isn’t man made. If it were we would look good on some level where we earn our way into God’s favor. Instead the guilty must come for forgiveness and offer the same for all who sinned against us. Human pride has to be shunned and self-righteousness given up. Coming to Jesus to make Him our Lord and Savior costs us everything, it is not a j ...[text shortened]...
Evil will be dealt with in full either by Jesus Christ’s grace or we stand before God in our sins.
You say that like it's a bad thing. So what if we look good?
@bigdogg saidGod is good He is the standard whose image we were created in. As I pointed out we grapple with is there such a thing as good and even if we accept it we don’t live up to it. We fall it temptations some times without even attempting to resist and when we do resist we fall but then with the understanding how strong sin’s grip on us is. We need a Savior or there would be no hope.
"If it were we would look good on some level where we earn our way into God’s favor."
You say that like it's a bad thing. So what if we look good?
@kellyjay saidWe can't be perfect. Christianity's insistence that we beat ourselves up because of that fact is very harmful.
God is good He is the standard whose image we were created in. As I pointed out we grapple with is there such a thing as good and even if we accept it we don’t live up to it. We fall it temptations some times without even attempting to resist and when we do resist we fall but then with the understanding how strong sin’s grip on us is. We need a Savior or there would be no hope.
It is sufficient to strive to be the best version of one's self. If we do that, we don't need an external saviour.
@bigdogg saidPerfect is the standard our being unable to achieve it, could not be done by being left to ourselves, by obeying the Law, what needed to be done had to be done by God. Accepting His grace and mercy allows God to come into us restoring our relationship with Him. Jesus’ death for our lives.
We can't be perfect. Christianity's insistence that we beat ourselves up because of that fact is very harmful.
It is sufficient to strive to be the best version of one's self. If we do that, we don't need an external saviour.
@kellyjay saidReligious faith is something different from knowledge of gravity or how to sail a ship safely in windy weather. You going on and on about the fact that the word "faith" CAN mean something other than religious faith, when we are talking about religious faith, is borderline sophistry on your part.
Faith is a matter of trust fidelity; it can be in people, systems, schools of thought, God, or all of the above there is nothing magical about the word; it isn't a religious word only, it is descriptive of how we see things, we believe, therefore.