Hear the Gospel

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
haha, it is not the apostles who have erred, although they did make some make quite mysterious mistakes, what marks the difference between them and you was their willingness to stand corrected.

correction number 1, no one has stated that Gehenna does not exist, what we have stated is that it is not a place of literal torment, eternal, temporal or ...[text shortened]... ve painted him as a torturer and vindictive god, when nothing could be further from the truth.

correction number 1, no one has stated that Gehenna does not exist, what we have stated is that it is not a place of literal torment, eternal, temporal or otherwise, but the common grave of mankind, which is a sleep like state with no consciousness, with references we have provided the basis for this.

Aren't you aware that the "common grave of mankind" is Hades, not Gehenna?

Both Hades and Gehenna have been translated as "hell" in many cases, causing confusion. Gehenna, though, is indeed the "lake of fire" - a place of eternal torment reserved for the Devil and his angels; where God sends unrepentant sinners. Hades, on the other hand, is the abode of death, where the disembodied soul goes to wait for unification with its body at the resurrection.

Note these passages:

"And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the Gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable -- where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched" (Mark 9:43-44, Young's Literal Translation).

"Having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses" (Acts 2:31-32, Young's Literal Translation).

Are you open minded enough to realize your error and turn away from it?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]correction number 1, no one has stated that Gehenna does not exist, what we have stated is that it is not a place of literal torment, eternal, temporal or otherwise, but the common grave of mankind, which is a sleep like state with no consciousness, with references we have provided the basis for this.

Aren't you aware that the "common grave of lation).

Are you open minded enough to realize your error and turn away from it?[/b]

wrong absolutely one hundred percent fallacy and unmitigated fabrication, do you think that when Christ used the illustration of the Valley of Hinnom (greek gehenna), just to the south and west of Jerusalem that his listeners envisioned it as a place of torment, if you do you are seriously deluded, perhaps a little history on the subject may change your mind, although i doubt, indoctrinated minds are like concrete, all mixed up and hardened, anyhow here goes,

the valley of Hinnom itself lay to the west and south of ancient Jerusalem and under the later kings of Judah it was used for the idolatrous worship of the pagan god Molech, to which god human sacrifices were offered by fire, (2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6 and Jeremiah 7:31, 32 and chapter 32:35) (note that this idolatrous practice is one which you would have us profess to believe, burning people in fire indeed!), anyhow continuing on, to prevent its use again for such religious purposes, faithful King Josiah had the valley polluted, particularly the part called Topheth, 2 Kings 23:10.

The Jewish commentator David Kimhi, in his comment gives the following historical information concerning 'Gehinnom', 'and it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom'

thus the valley of Hinnom became the dumping place and incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem, bodies of dead animals were thrown in to be consumed in the fires to which sulphur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of a decent burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown in. If such dead bodies landed in the fire they were consumed, but if their carcasses landed upon a ledge of the deep ravine their putrefying flesh became infested with worms, or maggots, which did not die until they had consumed the fleshy parts, leaving only the skeletons.

NO LIVING ANIMALS OR HUMANS WERE EVER PITCHED INTO GEHENNA TO BE BURNED ALIVE OR TORMENTED, thus the place could never symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire or attacked forever by undying worms. Because the dead criminals cast there were denied a decent burial in a memorial tomb, the symbol of the hope of a resurrection, so quite CLEARLY, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize complete destruction, annihilation from God’s universe, or as the scriptures state, 'the second death,” an eternal punishment of being cast off from before the face of God.

Therefore, to have ones dead body cast into Gehenna was considered the worst kind of punishment so from the literal Gehenna and its significance, the SYMBOL of the ‘lake burning with fire and sulphur’ was drawn, in conclusion it was simply a place where animal carcasses and those of condemned criminals were thrown, it simply pictured a place of complete annihilation, a place from which there was no return, NOT A PLACE OF TORMENT AS YOU HAVE ERRONEOUSLY PRESUMED TO TRY AND SUBSTANTIATE YOUR BABYLONIAN DOCTRINE!

it will be quite interesting i am sure as you try to substantiate the other inconsistencies that have been brought to your attention, regarding your traditions, the participation of so called Christians in war etc etc - regards robbie carrobie.

i thought i might leave you with a scriptural thought regarding the pagan and idolatrous practise of the apostate jews as it reflects on how god feels with regard to burning people, Jeremiah 7;31, with interesting refernce to the valley of hinnom

'And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’

NOTICE HOW GOD HIMSELF FEELS, yes, SUCH A THING HAS NEVER EVEN COME UP INTO HIS FIGURATIVE HEART.

Originally posted by josephw
But you fail to note that Pontius Pilate didn't wait for an answer from Jesus.

If you believe that Christians are responsible for world wars, then you are a fool, and no amount of reasoning with you will suffice to change your mind.

And what's more, your perception of reality, attested by your belief that Christians are perpetrators in the deaths of th ...[text shortened]... en, maybe we can have a purposeful dialog about that which was originally stated by me to you.

whether they were responsible or not, i do not know, whether they participants, i can say, unequivocally, YES, participats in what we may ask, the killing of other so called fellow Christians. it is hypocrisy through and through and the position undefendable, i am surprised you even ventured to try.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
whether they were responsible or not, i do not know, whether they participants, i can say, unequivocally, YES, participats in what we may ask, the killing of other so called fellow Christians. it is hypocrisy through and through and the position undefendable, i am surprised you even ventured to try.

Look, there were millions of people involved in both world wars. Obviously people got killed by Christians and atheists alike. I don't condone killing, but when one puts on a uniform and is ordered to kill...

Anyway, the world is in a mess. The killing isn't going to stop as long as man is running the show.

Originally posted by josephw
Look, there were millions of people involved in both world wars. Obviously people got killed by Christians and atheists alike. I don't condone killing, but when one puts on a uniform and is ordered to kill...

Anyway, the world is in a mess. The killing isn't going to stop as long as man is running the show.

must we obey God as ruler rather than men, Acts 5;29, this is exactly the type of thinking that i am arguing against, for if someone kills another human being he simply is not following the teaching of Christ, nor can he claim to be a Christian on that basis, and i whole heartedly agree with you, humans are incapable of ruling themselves, they simply were not designed for it, to argue against this on the basis of overwhelming evidence is futile regards Robbie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
must we obey God as ruler rather than men, Acts 5;29, this is exactly the type of thinking that i am arguing against, for if someone kills another human being he simply is not following the teaching of Christ, nor can he claim to be a Christian on that basis, and i whole heartedly agree with you, humans are incapable of ruling themselves, they simply ...[text shortened]... ed for it, to argue against this on the basis of overwhelming evidence is futile regards Robbie.

I think we have misread each other.

But don't make the mistake of quoting a verse out of it's context Robbie.

Obeying God rather than man has to do with whether one is being told to stop doing that which God has commanded as in the case with Peter. And that was those same fellas that crucified Jesus that Peter was talking to.

We are also to submit to the powers that be. As long as we are not required to disobey God.

But even Jesus commended to centurion for His faithful service.

Would you not expect a police officer to defend the innocent even to the point of killing a criminal to protect them if necessary?

Originally posted by josephw
I think we have misread each other.

But don't make the mistake of quoting a verse out of it's context Robbie.

Obeying God rather than man has to do with whether one is being told to stop doing that which God has commanded as in the case with Peter. And that was those same fellas that crucified Jesus that Peter was talking to.

We are also to submit t ...[text shortened]... r to defend the innocent even to the point of killing a criminal to protect them if necessary?

i have not and will never make the mistake of quoting a verse out of context, but always view it in its immediate context and in the context of the bible as a whole. that the scripture is very pertinent and has been shown in the Nuremberg trials to be relative to the topic because it was proven that everyone has a universal conscience which should be employed to override orders which contradict with a persons conscience. Are you trying to find a pretext for war here? if so you are severely mistaken, how can one be loving ones neighbor as oneself when he is killing him as was the case and is the case in many wars, (is this not a CHRISTIAN teaching?) when peter drew his sword on the slave of the high priest Malchas, what did the Christ state, return your sword to its place, for he who lives by the sword will perish by the sword, (is this not also a CHRISTIAN teaching?), the ancient prophet Isaiah very beautifully states, 'they will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning shears, nation will not rise up against nation neither will they learn war anymore', so please enough of the accusations of using verses out of context, the immediate context is good as well as the greater context, because quite clearly God requires that a Christian desist from killing.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have not and will never make the mistake of quoting a verse out of context, but always view it in its immediate context and in the context of the bible as a whole. that the scripture is very pertinent and has been shown in the Nuremberg trials to be relative to the topic because it was proven that everyone has a universal conscience which should b the greater context, because quite clearly God requires that a Christian desist from killing.

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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
must we obey God as ruler rather than men, Acts 5;29, this is exactly the type of thinking that i am arguing against, for if someone kills another human being he simply is not following the teaching of Christ, nor can he claim to be a Christian on that basis, and i whole heartedly agree with you, humans are incapable of ruling themselves, they simply ...[text shortened]... ed for it, to argue against this on the basis of overwhelming evidence is futile regards Robbie.

How do you come to grips with the wars and killings sanctioned by God in the OT?

Originally posted by whodey
How do you come to grips with the wars and killings sanctioned by God in the OT?

I believe the Sermon on the Mount answers your question.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
aha, how interesting Mr. Bond, so the word translated ,to torture, comes from the Greek word basanizo, now let us elucidate as to the possible connotations which of necessity arise from this rather interesting revelation, hence forth let us assert that this Greek word basanizo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures ...[text shortened]... ated he cannot face torture, can he?

there that wasn't so painful was it?

I recognize the possibility of translating the word torment to mean that of earlier translations that did not necessarily mean torment in the Bible, however, you must realize that the lake of fire is a new and different phenomenon not covered Biblically any where else.

If I am correct, your theology is that the "lost" will not be tortured, rather, they simply will cease to be. Is this correct?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe the Sermon on the Mount answers your question.

How so?

Originally posted by whodey
How so?

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
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Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy: 44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you; 45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
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Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wi ...[text shortened]... st and the unjust.
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Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

So it is your view that killing should never be considered justifiable in the eyes of God?

Originally posted by whodey
So it is your view that killing should never be considered justifiable in the eyes of God?

Hear the words of Jesus....