1. Standard membersonship
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    23 Oct '15 17:236 edits
    One of Rakk999's favorite passages to demonstrate the Christians losing the gift of eternal life is Hebrews 10:26 .

    Hebrews 10:26 - "For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins."


    I am using the Recovery Version Bible published by Living Stream Ministry. Someone may use another English version.

    The words in this translation "of bulls and goats" are supplied by the translator and do not appear in the original text.

    Who thinks it is misleading to supply for clarity in the passage " there no longer remains a sacrifice [of bulls and goats] for sins" ?

    If you remove the supplied words and you take it to mean that there no longer remains a sacrifice from Jesus Christ for sins, then how shall we understand verse 12 ?

    "But this One, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down forever on the right hand of God, ... "


    Does Rajk999 mean that Christ will never re-offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin, so that, the willful sinning one has lost forever his opportunity to be redeemed ?

    Does Rajk999 mean that Christ must re-offer Himself again and again and again many times as an offering for sins to take care of a Christian's sinning willfully once he has received the knowledge of the truth ?
  2. Standard membersonship
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    23 Oct '15 18:332 edits
    "For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins." (Heb. 10:26)


    The sinning willfully must mean returning to Judiasm's sacrificing "of bulls and goats. "

    The Hebrew recipients of this letter were wavering and tempted to forsake the Christian church and go back to the offering of bulls and goats. In returning to offer bulls and goats they would be have "trampled under foot the Son of God" and ..." considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and ... " insulted the Spirit of grace" ( v. 29).

    The dispensational discipline for this would be severe.

    Sinning willfully seems to be forsaking the assembly of the new covenant church and returning to the Old Testament sacrifices of bulls and goats AFTER receiving the knowledge of Christ having offered one sacrifice for all time.

    The consequences would be serious.
    The consequences would be fearful (v.31).
    The consequences should not be eternal punishment.

    Why?

    Because of the same chapter:

    " For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." ( v.14)


    Positionally, the believers have been perfected FOREVER. Dispositionally they are in the process of "being sanctified" .

    The warning is not about losing the eternal perfecting in position in eternal redemption. The warning is about not cooperating with the process of "being sanctified" but trying to return to offering bulls and goats for sin AFTER obtaining the revelation that Jesus Christ forever replaced all the Old Testament offerings.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    23 Oct '15 18:56
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] "For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins." (Heb. 10:26)


    The sinning willfully must mean returning to Judiasm's sacrificing "of bulls and goats. "

    The Hebrew recipients of this letter were wavering and tempted to forsak ...[text shortened]... TER obtaining the revelation that Jesus Christ forever replaced all the Old Testament offerings.[/b]
    Perfected forever refer to SOME. These are the same as the SHEEP.

    Not all Christians are sheep like you mistakenly believe.
    Some Christians are goats.

    Here is what Peter said :

    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

    These are BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE RETURNED TO THE VOMIT OF WORLINESS AND SIN.

    It was better if they had not known Christ in the first place ... a terrible condemnation.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    24 Oct '15 11:208 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Perfected forever refer to SOME. These are the same as the SHEEP.


    "By which will we have been sanctified ..." (v.10a)


    The audience of the epistle to the Hebrews , with the writer, " have been sanctified. "

    The "WE" are the Lord's people. And therefore they are the Lord's sheep ( John 10:27,28 ).

    The "WE" who have been sanctified are also the people of the Lord who are recipients of the warning in verse 30 -

    For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay"; and again, "The Lord will judge His people." (v.30)


    "His people" are also His sheep. And entering into the new covenant they have been sanctified forever through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE AND FOR ALL -

    He then has said, "Behold [the Son of God] , I have come to do Your will/" He takes away the first [will] that He may establish the second,

    By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all." (vs.9,10)


    Have you been sanctified forever by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all? I have. Praise the Lord. The promise AND the warning of this whole chapter is to me and to all Christians, the Lord's people and His sheep.


    Not all Christians are sheep like you mistakenly believe.
    Some Christians are goats.


    Where do you clearly see that ?
    It is important that you stay mostly with THIS chapter of Hebrews 10.

    Since ONE SACRIFICE for our sanctification has been offered for God's people to be perfected forever, the audience is sternly warned not to go back to the offerings of the Old Testament - bulls and goats.

    It is impossible for them replace Christ.
    It is unnecessary that they be sought now to replace Christ.
    It is NOT RIGHT that they should be sought now to replace Christ.

    And before you go off to Peter's epistle you should grasp the meaning of Hebrews 10

    For the audience to forsake the new covenant church, going back to the old covenant sacrifices is being warned against.

    "Not abandoning our own assembling together [in the new testament church] , as the custom with some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more as you see the day drawing near.

    For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no longer a sacrifice of bulls and goats for sins,

    But a certain fearful expectation ... etc. " (vs.25,26,27a)


    1.) It is not right to return to the old covenant.
    2.) It is not necessary to return to the old covenant.
    3.) It is not possible to return to the old covenant.

    And I will now add -

    4.) It will be a cause of discipline if any of the Hebrews ignore the warning and return to the old covenant.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    24 Oct '15 13:094 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I don't think everything necessary has been gone over in Hebrews 10.

    Then you add this about Peter's epistle:

    Here is what Peter said :

    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

    These are BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE RETURNED TO THE VOMIT OF WORLINESS AND SIN.

    It was better if they had not known Christ in the first place ... a terrible condemnation.


    I agree that what is described is a awful and dreadful backsliding.

    Does it mean that a Christians can lose the gifts of eternal life?
    To answer this we could look to the example of such a Christian who severely backslid.

    Look to First Corithians.

    "It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication that does even occur among the Gentiles, that someone has his stepmother." (1 Cor. 5:1)


    Compare the situation of this participant in the church in Corinth with what Peter describes in Second Peter. Please first answer these few questions:

    1.) Would you say that this Christian brother went "after the flesh in the lust of defilement"] (Comp. 2 Pet. 2:10) ? I would say so.

    2.) Would you say he acted like an animal without reason - (2 Pet. 2:12) ? I would say he pretty much did.

    3.) Would you say that Corinthian Christian had something like "eyes full of adultery - not ceasing from sin" ? (Comp. 2 Pet. 2:14).

    I would say something like that was going on in this Christian's life.

    4.) Was he a slave of corruption ? (Comp. 2 Pet. 2:19). Yes.

    5.) I think this Christian fits many of the descriptions of a sinful man that Peter lists in Second Peter 2:10-22. Without a doubt this backslidden one from Corinth -

    was defiled, despised lordship, was daring, (v.10);
    did not cease from sin, had a heart exercised in covetousness,unstable (v.14);
    lived in error (v.18);
    was "defeated" in his Christian testimony (v.19);
    went back into the defilement of the world most likely (v.20);
    had the knowledge of Jesus Christ (v.20);
    may have become a more sinful person than before he was a Christian (v.20);
    had a last state that was worse probably than when he first became a believer participating in the Corinthian church (v.21).

    Many of the horrible descriptions Peter mentions do fit this one of whom Paul wrote:

    " And have you not rather mourned, that the one who has done this deed might be REMOVED from your midst ? (1 Cor. 5:2)

    For I ... have already judged, as if being present him, who has thus done this.

    .... To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of this flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (v.5)


    Notice that this defeated brother who has been overcome by sinful living after becoming a Christian, Paul says he will be severely discipined.

    Notice that Paul does not refer to eternal perdition. He refers to destruction of part of his being so that another part of his being may be saved.

    "In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you and my spirit have been assembled, with the power of our Lord Jesus.

    To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, THAT ... his spirit may be saved .... in the day of the Lord." (v.4,5)


    Now if you TWIST my words to make it look like I am teaching it is good for a Christian to backslide into immorality, you are not an honest interpreter of my writing.

    Do not intentionally TWIST my words to malign my intention.
    The point here is that both Peter and Paul can speak of severe discipline (of some kind) of a born again person short of eternal punishment.

    Destruction - yet his spirit saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    24 Oct '15 15:23
    Originally posted by sonship
    I don't think everything necessary has been gone over in [b]Hebrews 10.

    Then you add this about Peter's epistle:

    [quote] Here is what Peter said :

    For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with the ...[text shortened]... hort of eternal punishment.

    Destruction - yet his spirit saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[/b]
    Here is another one to twist:

    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV)

    Chew on that .. those who do not obey Christ will be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION

    I guess everlasting destruction only applies to other people .. not Christians 😀
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    24 Oct '15 16:161 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here is another one to twist:

    [i]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from th ...[text shortened]... UCTION


    I guess everlasting destruction only applies to other people .. not Christians 😀[/b]
    First Thessalonians 1:7-9 is a completely different passage.

    What's a matter with you ?


    sonship (from gswilm's session)
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    24 Oct '15 16:241 edit
    too long, never read it. Jesus managed to express himself succinctly, why cant you?
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    24 Oct '15 16:54
    Originally posted by gswilm
    [b] First Thessalonians 1:7-9 is a completely different passage.

    What's a matter with you ?


    sonship (from gswilm's session)[/b]
    Completely different passages all saying the same thing.

    How about this one from Jesus himself:

    .. all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV)

    Twist away !
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    24 Oct '15 19:02
    So far we have the following passages:

    Heb 10 - if you sin willfully ... you face judgment and fiery indignation and sore punishment

    Heb 6 - impossible to renew to repentance those who once were partakers of the HS

    2 Peter 2 - If after accepting Christ then the Christian continues with worldliness and sin, it is better if he did not know of Christ at all.

    I Thes 2: 17 - Everlasting destruction for those who do not obey Christ

    John 5 - those who do evil will be resurrected for damnation

    1 Cor 3:17 - God will destroy all those that defile themselves.

    {more to come]

    So
    Jesus says damnation
    Paul says destroy, everlasting destruction and damnation
    Peter says it was better if they did not know Christ

    But Sonship says ... NO .. they will get eternal life.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    24 Oct '15 23:073 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Heb 10 - if you sin willfully ... you face judgment and fiery indignation and sore punishment


    Where did I deny that a Christian could face judgment and fiery indignation and sore punishment ? I have affirmed it.

    This passage allows for the above if need be :

    " If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15)


    Please ... ANYONE ... identify how this warning could not conceivably also include " judgment and sore punishment. "
  12. Standard membersonship
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    24 Oct '15 23:241 edit
    Heb 10 - if you sin willfully ... you face judgment and fiery indignation and sore punishment


    Where did I deny that a Christian could face judgment and fiery indignation ?

    What is it about this warning makes it impossible that this eternally saved brother could also face judgment and fiery indignation ?

    " ... To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (v.5)

    .


    What it is about this admonition which makes it impossible that if need be God will cause this saved person to be discipined by judgment and fiery indignation?

    It rather affirms that God will judge His people who also cannot be plucked from the Father / Son's hand.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    25 Oct '15 00:131 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Heb 10 - if you sin willfully ... you face judgment and fiery indignation and sore punishment


    Where did I deny that a Christian could face judgment and fiery indignation and sore punishment ? I have affirmed it.

    This passage allows for the above if need be :

    [quote] [b] " If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but h ...[text shortened]... y how this warning could not conceivably also include [b] " judgment and sore punishment. "
    [/b]
    Your 1 Cor 3 passage that you incessantly AND WRONGLY quote, contains three categories of people:
    1. those whose work is good and receives a reward
    2. those whose work is not good and suffers some kind of loss
    3. those who defile themselves and are destroyed.

    Matches perfectly with the parable of the talents by Jesus
    1. Big reward for hard work
    2. Small reward for little work
    3. Cast into the lake of fire for no work

    You deliberately leave out group 3 ... Shamelessly trying to deceive the gullible again ?
  14. Standard membersonship
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    25 Oct '15 02:275 edits
    Notice Rajk999's near inability with sticking with Hebrews chapter 10..

    You will notice much of Rajk999's philosophy is against a major theme of Hebrews 10, That is that the Christian should have BOLDNESS for entering into the presence of God.

    Rajk999's timidity and fear to firmly say he knows that he HAS eternal life is against this chapter's exhortation that Christians should be bold -

    "Having therefore brothers, boldness for entering into the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus, which entrance He initiated for us as a new and living way through the veil, that is His flesh." (10:19,20)


    If you follow Rajk999's reluctance to confess himself saved, you throw away the "boldness" this book exhorts Christians to have. Rajk999 thinks it is more safe to not be bold, but timid with false humility.

    Rajk999's fear that maybe he will not be obedient enough to inherit eternal life is not the "full assurance" that Hebrews 10 exhorts.

    "Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (v.22)


    Christians should come forward to the Holy presence of God with "boldness" and with a true heart of "full assurance" . Our boldness and full assurance is in Christ's Person and work.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    25 Oct '15 02:475 edits

    "Having therefore, brothers, BOLDNESS for entering the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus." (v.19)

    "Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in FULL ASSURANCE ..." (v.22a)


    Hebrews 10 says the saved man should come forward to God in full assurance of faith . Rajk999 seems in rebellion. He teaches no Christian should have full assurance of faith.

    Hebrews 10 says the saved man should come forward to God in boldness. Rajk999, complains greatly if Christians possess boldness to say they know that the one offering for sin has perfected the forever.

    He would teach that a Christian should cast away boldness. But Hebrews chapter 10 which Rajk999 wants to run and hide from, exhorts Christians NOT to cast away their boldness:

    "Do not cast away therefore your BOLDNESS, which has great reward." (v.35)


    Rajk999's Christianity amounts to telling believers to not be bold but cast away boldness. To him no Christians knows if his disobedience will cause God to revoke the LOAN of eternal life. To him, it is better to be afraid to you know God will no longer remember our sins anymore, according to the new covenant.

    " This is the covenant which I will covenant ... And their sins and their lawlessnesses I will by no means remember anymore." (v.16a, 17)


    I am not skipping words to conceal anything. I am only highlighting crucial words in this passage to the debate here.
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