1. Account suspended
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    26 Jun '13 21:242 edits
    "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8)

    Let us take a look at the original language of this verse

    ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos, which reads literally as,
    the throne of you oh God, to the age of the age.

    http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/1-8.htm

    You will notice dear reader that in the Greek text there is no verb [is] and its up to the translator to supply the verb when translating in English, for English is not Greek and it must be made grammatically correct in the language to which it is being rendered. The problem for the translator is where to put the implied verb [is]

    Now let us take a look at the sentence, 'the throne of you', means 'your throne', 'the god' is the New testaments way of saying God, for it contains the definite article, 'the'. 'to the age of the age', is a typical way of saying forever and ever. Now the question is, where does the implied verb [is] go to make it all come together.

    In English we know exactly where to place a verb, it comes between the subject and the object of the verb or in sentences that use the verb 'to be', between the subject and the predicate noun or predicate adjective or some other predicate modifier. The question of Hebrews is what is the subject? Subject nouns in Greek are usually in the nominative case, but when the verb 'to be', is used other nouns in the sentence can also be in the nominative state.

    In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form, 'throne', and 'God'. The verb therefore belongs between these two nouns as it does in dozens of other cases. That being the case, the text should read, 'your throne is God, forever and ever'. Thus the New world translation accurately depicts the verse as,

    (Hebrews 1:8) But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever. . . .'

    The New revised standard version and the Today's English version also recognise this as a valid translation in footnotes to the verse in their editions.

    Now the question dear reader, why have the translators cited by the trinitarians ignored this grammatically simple and correct treatment and translated the verse to make it appear the Christ is God? By now you have no need of me telling you dear reader, RELIGIOUS BIAS. Another sly attempt to usurp the pure and undefiled word of God by introducing a doctrine not explicitly stated in the text. At least this time their deception relies upon the placement of the implied verb rather than blatantly adding words, never the less, its plain for all to see, why they have done so. Lets see if it takes them as long not to admit it again.
  2. Joined
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    27 Jun '13 00:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8)

    Let us take a look at the original language of this verse

    ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos, which reads literally as,
    the throne of you oh God, to the age of the age.

    http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/1-8.htm

    You will notice dear reader that ...[text shortened]... have done so. Lets see if it takes them as long not to admit it again.
    I'll wait right here with you Robbie... 🙂
  3. Joined
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    27 Jun '13 04:12
    Still waiting.....
  4. Joined
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    27 Jun '13 05:061 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8)

    Let us take a look at the original language of this verse

    ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos, which reads literally as,
    the throne of you oh God, to the age of the age.

    http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/1-8.htm

    You will notice dear reader that have done so. Lets see if it takes them as long not to admit it again.
    I'm not trinitarian, but I don't see what your issue is as you believe Jesus is a God (mighy god) as well as jehovah (almighty god). The fact that you have to draw this distinction, elevate Jesus to god status whilst continuing to deny him godhead status is comical. to summarise you have:

    2 saviours, Jesus and Jehovah
    Jesus is a god, as well as an angel
    You personally have multiple spiritual fathers

    Irrespective of what the trinitarians believe, watching you have a go at them over this topic is hypocrisy in action.
  5. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    27 Jun '13 05:191 edit
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I'll wait right here with you Robbie... 🙂
    This song is dedicated to robbie and galvie and the special bond they share. 😀

    YouTube
  6. Standard memberblack beetle
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    27 Jun '13 06:10
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8)

    Let us take a look at the original language of this verse

    ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos, which reads literally as,
    the throne of you oh God, to the age of the age.

    http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/1-8.htm

    You will notice dear reader that ...[text shortened]... have done so. Lets see if it takes them as long not to admit it again.
    Hey Robbie,

    The monks at Agion Oros consider that Psalm 45 7,8 and Hebr. 1:8 have the same meaning (and they are aware of the fact that the Psalm was not written for the Son but for the kings of Israel, and it was properly used during the ceremony of their marriage).
    According to them, 1:8 is taken from the Psalm and goes simply: “ …he told the Son your kingdom, oh God, is eternal and you rule the world justly” etc etc. Mind you, this translation is accurate due to the fact that "o theos" is of course a vocative case and not nominative;
    😵
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    27 Jun '13 08:39
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    This song is dedicated to robbie and galvie and the special bond they share. 😀

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rpJe84z1DM
    Lol,

    I dedicate this song to the trinitrians,

    Vanilla Fudge,

    YouTube
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    27 Jun '13 08:543 edits
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Hey Robbie,

    The monks at Agion Oros consider that Psalm 45 7,8 and Hebr. 1:8 have the same meaning (and they are aware of the fact that the Psalm was not written for the Son but for the kings of Israel, and it was properly used during the ceremony of their marriage).
    According to them, 1:8 is taken from the Psalm and goes simply: “ …he told the Son ...[text shortened]... s accurate due to the fact that "o theos" is of course a vocative case and not nominative;
    😵
    Its incredibly interesting dear Beetle, our understanding is of course that the King of Israel is being addressed in the Psalm (45:6.7) as they are said to sit on Jehovahs throne (merely being a representative of a higher power), prophetically and doctrinally we have no problem with the verse being addressed to the son, for the son of-course likewise receives authority from the father.

    Concerning the grammar and the problems presented in translation, scholar B. F. Westcott states: “ The Greek Septuagint admits of two renderings: [ho theos] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God) and in apposition to [ho theos sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God) It is scarcely possible that [Elohim] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho theos] is a vocative in the Greek Septuagint . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God) that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’” -The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.
  9. Standard memberblack beetle
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    27 Jun '13 10:27
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Its incredibly interesting dear Beetle, our understanding is of course that the King of Israel is being addressed in the Psalm (45:6.7) as they are said to sit on Jehovahs throne (merely being a representative of a higher power), prophetically and doctrinally we have no problem with the verse being addressed to the son, for the son of-course likewise ...[text shortened]... founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’” -The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.
    I know, but the monks follow St Ioannis Chrysostomos' exegesis instead Westcott's; since the Son is understood by them as being higher than the angels, the vocative makes to them sense, and at the same time this rendering is accurate😵
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    27 Jun '13 11:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8)

    Let us take a look at the original language of this verse

    ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos, which reads literally as,
    the throne of you oh God, to the age of the age.

    http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/1-8.htm

    You will notice dear reader that ...[text shortened]... have done so. Lets see if it takes them as long not to admit it again.
    You've been duped again robbie, and there's no point in debating the issue with you since changing your mind is next to impossible.

    How is it that every translation I have to hand, a dozen at least, contradicts everything you're saying? And the Greek text you're using must be the one you got from the Watchtower no doubt.
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    27 Jun '13 11:202 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    You've been duped again robbie, and there's no point in debating the issue with you since changing your mind is next to impossible.

    How is it that every translation I have to hand, a dozen at least, contradicts everything you're saying? And the Greek text you're using must be the one you got from the Watchtower no doubt.
    you may have noticed that I provide reasons, you nothingness, what is there to debate with you if you insist on introducing logical fallacies and arguments based upon 'appeals to populace', 'every one believes it so it must be true'. I have proven here and elsewhere that you have no real way of knowing what an accurate rendering is and what is not, now why dont you stop wasting my time and yours by pretending that you do. Run along, there's a good fellow.
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    27 Jun '13 11:303 edits
    Originally posted by black beetle
    I know, but the monks follow St Ioannis Chrysostomos' exegesis instead Westcott's; since the Son is understood by them as being higher than the angels, the vocative makes to them sense, and at the same time this rendering is accurate😵
    westcott admits as much dear beetle, what then is left to be said, that exegesis is what determines the rendering?

    Fine, which rendering is harmonious within the context?

    The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshipper of that God.

    Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in Revised standard version, reads “Your divine throne.” (New English version says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chron. 29:23) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him and thus the rendering of the text by assuming the nominative seems to me to be entirely accurate not only from a grammatical perspective, but doctrinally as well.

    If the trinitarians will admit their bias, it is enough for me!
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    27 Jun '13 11:452 edits
    Though Robbie will no doubt speak of grand conspiracy of bias, these many and varied translators supply this array of renderings of Hebrews 1:8:


    Bible > Hebrews > Chapter 1 > Verse 8
    ◄ Hebrews 1:8 ►

    New International Version (©2011)
    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    But to the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    International Standard Version (©2012)
    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.

    NET Bible (©2006)
    but of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    But concerning The Son, he said, “Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.”

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    But God said about his Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    American King James Version
    But to the Son he said, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    American Standard Version
    but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Darby Bible Translation
    but as to the Son, Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    English Revised Version
    but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    But to the Son, he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

    Weymouth New Testament
    But of His Son, He says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of absolute justice.

    World English Bible
    But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;
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    27 Jun '13 11:495 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    Though Robbie will no doubt speak of grand conspiracy of bias, these many and varied translators supply this array of renderings of Hebrews 1:8:




    Bible > Hebrews > Chapter 1 > Verse 8


    ◄ Hebrews 1:8 ►





    New International Version (©2011)
    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ev e age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;
    I have provided reasons, both grammatically and doctrinally, you do what you can only do, cite lots of biased translations in support of your paganism, which is fine by me because its a weak and beggarly argument, a logical fallacy for sure, 'everyone translates it this way, therefore it must be the true translation', a nonsense. All you need to do is admit your bias. I feel your belief in me is waning Jaywill, but it will be ok, we shall expose religious bias wherever we find it, so feel easy.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '13 12:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have provided reasons, both grammatically and doctrinally, you do what you can only do, cite lots of biased translations in support of your paganism, which is fine by me because its a weak and beggarly argument, a logical fallacy for sure, 'everyone translates it this way, therefore it must be the true translation', a nonsense. All you need to do ...[text shortened]... Jaywill, but it will be ok, we shall expose religious bias wherever we find it, so feel easy.
    I would wager that if you could conceivably get all the translators of those English versions together in a room you'd probable see many disagreements and opinions on other matters.

    This is not argument ad populum. This is throwing considerable doubt upon your confidence that you and you alone know what the Greek to English of Hebrews 1:8 must be.
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