1. Account suspended
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    13 Oct '08 23:56
    Originally posted by jaywill
    What would you then say about this passage in the Hebrew Bible ?


    [b]"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt." (Daniel 12:2)
    [/b]
    if they were being tormented in some fiery hell, then why are they sleeping? one must assume of course that if they are 'sleeping' in the dust', they are dead? is it not so?
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    14 Oct '08 00:112 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    if they were being tormented in some fiery hell, then why are they sleeping? one must assume of course that if they are 'sleeping' in the dust', they are dead? is it not so?
    You have a point. However I don't think it is strong enough.

    It says that they will awake to "eternal contempt". The emphasis is not on what was happening while they were sleeping, but on, to what they will awake.

    Secondly, I mention that "eternal contempt" could conceivably not be torment. But I rather think it probably is because of the stream of fire proceeding from the throne of the Divine One before Whom they awake and stand:

    "I watched until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool; His throne was flames of fire, Its wheels, burning fire.

    A stream of fire issued forth and came out from before Him.

    Thousands of thousands ministered to Him. And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him. The court of judgment sat, And the books were opened." (Daniel 7:9,10)


    This is an end of age prophetic vision. And the judgment with the fire and the stream of fire with the books strongly suggest judgment upon those condemned by fire of God's holy and just judgment.
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    14 Oct '08 00:221 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    You have a point. However I don't think it is strong enough.

    It says that they will awake to [b]"eternal contempt".
    The emphasis is not on what was happening while they were sleeping, but on, to what they will awake.

    Secondly, I mention that "eternal contempt" could conceivably not be torment. But I rather think it probably is because of strongly suggest judgment upon those condemned by fire of God's holy and just judgment.[/b]
    unless there are graves in heaven, i don't think that this could be the case? and while they may be judged, and remember that fire also can be used as illustrative of cleansing process, although in this instance i don't think it is, your argument suggest that they are killed rather than tormented.
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    14 Oct '08 00:55
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    unless there are graves in heaven, i don't think that this could be the case? and while they may be judged, and remember that fire also can be used as illustrative of cleansing process, although in this instance i don't think it is, your argument suggest that they are killed rather than tormented.
    ==========================================
    unless there are graves in heaven, i don't think that this could be the case? and while they may be judged, and remember that fire also can be used as illustrative of cleansing process, although in this instance i don't think it is, your argument suggest that they are killed rather than tormented.
    ============================================


    The scene is very much like that of Revelation chapter 20. And in that chapter the judged are suspended before God and heaven and earth have fled away. So I don't think problems over location will rescue your skepticism.

    As for the fire, I agree it symbolic of a cleansing process. But what do you think the eternal damnation IS except a universal trash can ?

    That is the place where God discards all that He in His nature has deemed worthless, unfit to be anywhere else, refuse, dirty garbage.

    That is why the redemption in Christ is so precious to save us from such a fate.

    Eternal damnation is also an garbage heap to rid God's universe of all unclean things. It is the ultimate reality of the strong type of Gehenna - the city dump outside of Jerusalem.
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    14 Oct '08 01:052 edits
    In the Bible the person to blame for the teaching of eternal punishment is for the most part Jesus Christ.

    The same Man from whose mouth such words of love, forgiveness, longsuffering, redemption, and pardon came, also uttered most of the clearest teachings about eternal damnation.

    It is as if God would not entrust such a serious message to any one else mainly. You have to blame the lovely Jesus for those ideas.

    He had more than one aspect to Him.
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    14 Oct '08 01:141 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    In the Bible the person to blame for the teaching of eternal punishment is for the most part Jesus Christ.

    The same Man from whose mouth such words of love, forgiveness, longsuffering, redemption, and pardon came, also uttered most of the clearest teachings about eternal damnation.

    It is as if God would not entrust such a serious message to any one e ...[text shortened]... nly. You have to blame the lovely Jesus for those ideas.

    He had more than one aspect to Him.
    here we must draw a distinction between eternal damnation, i.e everlasting cutting off from God and prospects of eternal life, the second death as it is referred to in the book of revelation and eternal torment, the two must not be confused, sorry, have a read of Rom 6:23 and Ecclesiastes 9:5 and we can discuss some more tomorrow, its 2 am in Glasgow, i have work tomorrow and i am wasted- regards Robert.

    i just re read you post, this idea of heavens and earth is incredibly interesting, we must discuss because Peter makes reference to a literal heavens and earth of old that was destroyed in the flood, which cannot mean the physical heavens and earth because here we are still on it! anyhow speak later - regards Robert.
  7. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    14 Oct '08 01:26
    Originally posted by duecer
    its allegory, not an actual event
    Oh, you mean there wasn't an actual talking snake or an actual tree bearing fruit the consumption of which imparted complete moral knowledge?
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    14 Oct '08 01:311 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    here we must draw a distinction between eternal damnation, i.e everlasting cutting off from God and prospects of eternal life, the second death as it is referred to in the book of revelation and eternal torment, the two must not be confused, sorry, have a read of Rom 6:23 and Ecclesiastes 9:5 and we can discuss some more tomorrow, its 2 am in Glasgow ...[text shortened]... hysical heavens and earth because here we are still on it! anyhow speak later - regards Robert.
    ================================
    here we must draw a distinction between eternal damnation, i.e
    =====================================


    If we must "draw a distinction" does this now mean you admit that such a teaching IS indeed in the Bible? Otherwise what need is there to draw a distinction?

    ==========================================
    everlasting cutting off from God and prospects of eternal life, the second death as it is referred to in the book of revelation and eternal torment, the two must not be confused,
    ==========================================


    I agree that we should be careful and not be confused. However, your earlier statement was that there was no teaching of eternal perdition in the Bible.

    That is not true. But I agree that we should rightly divide the word of God and not be confused.

    ====================================
    sorry, have a read of Rom 6:23 and Ecclesiastes 9:5 and we can discuss some more tomorrow, its 2 am in Glasgow, i have work tomorrow and i am wasted- regards Robert.
    ==========================================


    First let's deal with Ecclesiastes. This book is limited in its scope. It covers everything "under the sun". As regards to the typical life on earth that the living know, once you are dead, that is oblivion.

    Solomon leaves beyond this realm of "under the sun" as the realm that none living have experienced. It is unknown what awaits man after death. As far as the temporaral realm of under the sun is concerned, death is the end of all human life - oblivion.

    Mind you though he says "Who knows ...? Does the spirit of the beast go downward and the spirit of a man go upward ? "Who knows ..?"

    "Who knows the breath of the children of men, that it goes upward; or that breath of the beast, that is goes downward to the earth" (Ecc. 3:21)

    So the scope of Solomon's revelation in Ecclesiastes has its limitations.

    It is also late for me. But Romans 6:23 doesn't prove there is no eternal damnation. Generally death here is seperation from God. That is the wages of sin.

    I don't think you can appeal to Romans 6:23 to nullify so many other clear references to eternal torment.

    Thank God that Christ's redemption can save us from such a future.
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    14 Oct '08 01:33
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Oh, you mean there wasn't an actual talking snake or an actual tree bearing fruit the consumption of which imparted complete moral knowledge?
    the account is interesting, it states that Eve saw that the fruit was 'good to look at, desirable to the eyes, literal translation 'good for imparting' knowledge', so what actually happened was an appeal to her intellect, the ability to decide for herself what was right and wrong, independent from God.
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    14 Oct '08 01:398 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]================================
    here we must draw a distinction between eternal damnation, i.e
    =====================================


    If we must "draw a distinction" does this now mean you admit that such a teaching IS indeed in the Bible? Otherwise what need is there to draw a distinction?

    ==========================================
    eve torment.

    Thank God that Christ's redemption can save us from such a future.
    yes i can, i don't see how that you can infer that it means anything else, both Romans and Ecclesiastes, either you believe that scripture is inspired of god or you don't. there is no eternal torment, nothing, zilch, its death as Solomon and Paul stated, no consciousness, and if there is no consciousness how are you gonna feel any torment. A God of love would not subject people to a process whereby they are born sinful and punish them eternally because of their sinful condition, its cruel and entirely uncharacteristic of his personality as revealed in scripture and the physical universe. Romans does not say separation , it states death, unequivocally and very clearly, death, nothing more, nothing less. its stated quite clearly in Ecclesiastes 9:5 what awaits man at death, nothing. No consciousness, no pain, no torment, nothing, that's it, until the resurrection of course, and if we are to believe that once a person has died they are acquitted of their sin, therefore, logically when they are resurrected they will have a chance to start anew, is it not so, because the price of their iniquity will have been paid, although the scriptures do indicate that some will not get a resurrection because of having sinned against the holy spirit, in which instance their punishment is everlasting cutting off with no prospect of a resurrection, but that is for God to decide.
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    14 Oct '08 09:57
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Did man know murder was a sin before God issued the Sixth Commandment?

    If man already knew that murder was wrong, what was the point of issuing the Commandment?
    Also, wouldn't this also indicate that man actually does have the capacity to make correct moral judgments without being informed by God's word?

    On the other hand, if man didn't know that murder was wrong, was it just for God to send Cain to hell?
    man knew. because he ate apples.

    but just because you know what is just and what is not it doesn't mean you are compelled to do what is just. so the point of the commandments is this:

    (God speaking)
    "Alright you idiots, you ate from the tree and you know good and evil. But you still choose to do evil. I gave you hints(Cain, the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah etc) and you still don't get it. From now on you have these ten laws, disobey them and i will punish you a-holes jerks"
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    14 Oct '08 12:571 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes i can, i don't see how that you can infer that it means anything else, both Romans and Ecclesiastes, either you believe that scripture is inspired of god or you don't. there is no eternal torment, nothing, zilch, its death as Solomon and Paul stated, no consciousness, and if there is no consciousness how are you gonna feel any torment. A God of is everlasting cutting off with no prospect of a resurrection, but that is for God to decide.
    ============================================
    yes i can, i don't see how that you can infer that it means anything else, both Romans and Ecclesiastes, either you believe that scripture is inspired of god or you don't.
    ===========================================


    You can believe what you think is right.

    But for me, though I don't particularly like it sometimes, I have no choice but to believe in eternal retribution.

    "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath;

    and he shall be tormented in fire and brimestone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

    And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night ... " (Revelation 14:9b-11a)


    ==============================================
    there is no eternal torment, nothing, zilch ...
    ========================================


    Revelation 14:9-11 teaches otherwise.

    You believe as the Universalists do. This above is part of what I believe.


    ======================================
    its death as Solomon and Paul stated, no consciousness, and if there is no consciousness how are you gonna feel any torment.
    ======================================


    Samuel's spirit came up from Hades in First Samuel 28:3-21


    =========================================
    A God of love would not subject people to a process whereby they are born sinful and punish them eternally because of their sinful condition, its cruel and entirely uncharacteristic of his personality as revealed in scripture and the physical universe.
    =======================================


    The Bible teaches that a God of love would also exact eternal retribution on those who will not repent to be saved.

    As Paul wrote "Behold then the kindness and severity of God ..." (Rom. 11:22a)

    Did you notice that ... "kindness AND severity" of God? Not just kindness, not just severity but both.

    ======================================
    Romans does not say separation , it states death, unequivocally and very clearly, death, nothing more, nothing less.
    ====================================


    Reading carefully Romans 6 through 8 it is clear that sometimes "death" does not refer to the stopping of the physical heart. Though at times it includes that. At other times it means seperation from God, ie. "the mind set on the flesh is death but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (8:6)

    And he is speaking there in chapter 8 to born again Christians.


    ====================================
    its stated quite clearly in Ecclesiastes 9:5 what awaits man at death, nothing. No consciousness, no pain, no torment, nothing, that's it,
    =======================================


    Once again the spiritual and soul component of the prophet Samuel came up from Hades in the book of First Samuel.

    And Christ's specific instructions were that His disciples were to fear God who could do something to man even after his body has died.

    "And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do.

    But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Genehnna; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4-5)


    Don't even think about twisting Luke 12:4-5 on me. It will not work.

    I didn't say I liked the doctrine. I said I have no choice but to believe it.

    My past experience is that when retribution deniers like yourself (or Universalists or Christian Scientists) cannot make persuasve arguements from the Bible they eventually fall into accusing me of being a terrorist or loving that people be tormented.

    You're being clocked and timed.
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    14 Oct '08 16:182 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]============================================
    yes i can, i don't see how that you can infer that it means anything else, both Romans and Ecclesiastes, either you believe that scripture is inspired of god or you don't.
    ===========================================


    You can believe what you think is right.

    But for me, though I don't particularly l ist or loving that people be tormented.

    You're being clocked and timed.[/b]
    I promise to get back to you on all these issues, at present i feel like the German army in Russia, fighting on all fronts, but for the meantime, how can you state that such is the case when quite clearly people who have died have paid the price of their sin, death is the ultimate price, not punishment! it does not state that the wages of sin is eternal punishment, does it, it simply states that the wages, i.e, the effects of sin are punishment, no, but simply death.

    and Samuel was simply an apparition, conjured by a spiritual medium, nothing more, that the dead are clearly in a state of unconsciousness is not only biblical and based firmly on scripture but was alluded to by Christ when he resurrected Lazarus, what did he state, that Lazarus was, being tormented ?, in heaven ?, no none of these, that he was simply sleeping. the whole argument that somehow something survives death, a soul, call it whatever you like is satanic, what did Satan state when addressing Eve, 'you positively will not die', in other words you will live on forever, what actually happened ?, they died and went where?, to eternal punishment, no! to the dust from which they were created, its quite clear and easy to grasp.

    the scriptures in revelation that you sited need some research on my part, but i will try to do this, and please do not become worried, i never get personal or offensive, or try to twist scriptures to suit a non existent prejudice or misconception, life's too short for that nonsence.!
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    14 Oct '08 18:54
    I don't think Hell exists. I can't figure out a reason for it.

    The idea for hell probably came about from those who were wronged in this existence trying to come up with a way to make themselves feel better about being wronged. I don't see it, though.
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    14 Oct '08 19:22
    Originally posted by Badwater
    I don't think Hell exists. I can't figure out a reason for it.

    The idea for hell probably came about from those who were wronged in this existence trying to come up with a way to make themselves feel better about being wronged. I don't see it, though.
    Good way to keep fractious children in line.

    Best definition of hell is merely separation from God. Beelzebub said it best: "Why this is hell; nor am I out of it."
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