Hell=Death?

Originally posted by genius
i am in Love. is love no use until i am dead?

You sound like Krishna, which is very Christ-like.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The Bible is rich in metaphor. "I am the way, the truth, & the life"...that is metaphor. "Fishers of men"...an excellent metaphor. Then there's that business about the wheat & the chaff...or was Jesus really quoting the Farmer's Almanac? Perhaps Paul really did have a thorn in his side after all...Metaphor is fundamental to Biblical language. If ...[text shortened]... maximising human potential (into the spiritual) or one that is no use until you're dead?

Ok....another word is figure of speech...but there are rules, you can't take eternal life and say it is a figure...there is a book called "Figures of speech in the bible", and it explains the logical rules to figures, I'll have to look it up and be more specific.
I do know that figures of speech are used to empasize a point..ie...
The ground is dry vs The ground is thirsty.
But for eternal life to be a metaphor would be outrages. What reward is there to "spiritual awakening?"....if there is no life after this as Jesus promised, then I might as well eat, drink and be merry! What good is spititual awakening if I die anyway?...It sounds like achieving Nervana...Nervana = Nothingness!...whoopy doo...

1Thes 4:14-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(NKJ)

Is this a metaphor too?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
....another word is figure of speech...but there are rules, you can't take eternal life and say it is a figure... Is this a metaphor too?

... all this "dead arising" reminds me of "Dead Man Walking"

That had weird little otherwordly spooks, too, metalinguistically speaking.

Originally posted by widget
... all this "dead arising" reminds me of "Dead Man Walking"

That had weird little otherwordly spooks, too, metalinguistically speaking.

Now that you mention that....the bible says you are the one who is dead..
Eph 2:1-6
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(NKJ)

So, what am I doing conversing with a corpse??🙄

Originally posted by checkbaiter
So, what am I doing conversing with a corpse??🙄

We are all dead, already, time being an illusion, we're just slow to notice....

So yeah, that would undoubtedly include you and I both. Explains the smell, doesn't it?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
So, what am I doing conversing with a corpse??🙄

We are all dead, already, time being an illusion, we're just slow to notice....

So yeah, that would undoubtedly include you and I both. Explains the smell, doesn't it?


Ooops! - the devil made me click twice when I should've been purling once.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Because if it is all metaphors, then the bible is useless. Anyone can make it mean whatever they want...this is a cunning attack on the integrity of the Word of God...nothing new....😴

No one said it is all metaphors. Undoubtedly it contains a blend of metaphor and historical reality.

Concerning this problem with pure literality of the book, just a few well known examples...

1. Age of the Earth -- Bible says Earth was created on the 6th day. It also indicates that 4,000 years elapsed between Adam and Jesus. Jesus was 2,000 years ago. Therefore, the Earth is about 6,000 years old.

Literal, or metaphor?

2. Noah’s ark had in it two of all creatures on Earth (Genesis 6:19).

Genesis 6:15 gives a specific size for Noah's ark 300 by 50 by 30 cubits. The math here suggests that not all of Earth's creatures -- two of each -- could have fit in there, unless packed together like sundried tomatoes...

Literal or metaphor?

3. Matthew's Nativity tale. Literal or metaphor?

4. The Virgin birth. Literal or metaphor?

5. Jesus walking on water. Literal or metaphor?

By the way...interestingly, Buddhist doctrines are also full of stories of the Buddha flying through the air, walking on water, and commanding celestial deities. I greatly value the Buddha's spiritual teachings but I don't believe any of the fantastical fables to be literal reality in his case either.

Now Lao Tzu (the founder of Taoism) supposedly rode a water buffalo backwards out of China toward the end of his life, disappearing into the hills.

That just might be literal... 🙂

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The Bible is rich in metaphor. "I am the way, the truth, & the life"...that is metaphor. "Fishers of men"...an excellent metaphor. Then there's that business about the wheat & the chaff...or was Jesus really quoting the Farmer's Almanac? Perhaps Paul really did have a thorn in his side after all...Metaphor is fundamental to Biblical language. If ...[text shortened]... maximising human potential (into the spiritual) or one that is no use until you're dead?

Excellent post!

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
No one said it is all metaphors. Undoubtedly it contains a blend of metaphor and historical reality.

Concerning this problem with pure literality of the book, just a few well known examples...

1. Age of the Earth -- Bible says Earth was created on the 6th day. It also indicates that 4,000 years elapsed between Adam and Jesus. Jesus was 2, ...[text shortened]... na toward the end of his life, disappearing into the hills.

That just might be literal... 🙂

Those 5 examples ,I believe, are all literal....that is what I meant...because you don't believe in a God who has real power, you can only accept these truths as metaphors.
#1...literal....I have explained this before, Genesis1:1&2...the earth "was" without form and void...the proper translation is "became", when was the earth created?...in the beginning...does not give a time frame.
The time that lapsed between the initial creation and the time the earth became is not known. All I can assume is that in this time period the "angels" were created...there is more on this in Ezekial, I believe.
Nevertheless, I suspect the earth is about 10,000 years old...and I know what is coming next...there is controversy about carbon dating...I don't have the time to get into details...it's not hard to find if you become nuetral and rid yourself of bias.
#2. Noah's Ark...where do you get this evidence? Don't forget, fish were already in the waters...there are some good sites to read up on this if you are really interested.
#3.What about the Nativity?
#4. Again, God created seed in a woman, why is this too hard for God?
#5. Ditto, do you really believe God would be powerless?
Same with parting of the red sea...There are photo's from helicopters, of what could be remains of Noah's Ark on Mt. Ariet.
What about the flood itself?...was this a metaphor too...scientists know something catacylismic happened that wiped out all life a long time ago.
You also failed to answer my question about the return of Christ...is that a metaphor?
Now I know I am wasting my time here, but if you are going to attack the integrity of the bible by seeing all these metaphors...it just won't work on a Christian who happens to believe that God has power.

Jer 32:26-27
26 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?
(NKJ)


Isa 40:13-15
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as His counselor has taught Him?
14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, and showed Him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket, and are counted as the small dust on the scales; look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
(NKJ)

Isa 40:17-18
17 All nations before Him are as nothing, and they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
(NKJ)

The eternal life part does not so much refer to time as to a quality of life.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Those 5 examples, I believe, are all literal....

1. Limit to number of angels fittable on head of pin?

2. Times God has felt remorse at what man does to man?

3. Verifiable proofs of the existence of Hell?

4. Dead men arising and walking amongst us?

5. Amount of critical though required to cut and paste from some fundamentalist website?


All have the same answer - none, zero, nil, zilch, nada.

Those 5 examples ,I believe, are all literal....that is what I meant...because you don't believe in a God who has real power, you can only accept these truths as metaphors.

I don't believe in a God who has the kind of power that you believe in. Big difference. That does not mean I do not "believe" in a divine Source of all life, and nor that this Source has "no power".

Nevertheless, I suspect the earth is about 10,000 years old...and I know what is coming next...there is controversy about carbon dating...I don't have the time to get into details...it's not hard to find if you become nuetral and rid yourself of bias.

You believe the Earth to be 10,000 years old. Okay. Fair enough. I actually don't care what you believe -- believe it or not. I simply see much of the Bible as metaphor.

As for the age of the Earth, I'm inclined to trust what science tells us about that, more than the Bible. And that has nothing to do with my subjective experience of God. It has to do with my rejection of wholesale literal interpretation of the Bible.

#2. Noah's Ark...where do you get this evidence? Don't forget, fish were already in the waters...there are some good sites to read up on this if you are really interested.

#3.What about the Nativity?

#4. Again, God created seed in a woman, why is this too hard for God?

For a God with the type of powers that you see him as having, granted, anything is possible. I don't view God as working that way, however.

There are many excellent texts that deconstruct the Biblical miracle stories. John Shelby Spong and Uta Ranke-Heinemann have written several. Also excellent are the writings by the scholars of the Wester Institute, like Burton Mack, Robert Funk, Dominic Crossan, etc. These are religious scholars who've spent their lives studying the Bible. If read with an open mind, free of bias, one will be enlightened greatly by their views.

#5. Ditto, do you really believe God would be powerless?
Same with parting of the red sea...There are photo's from helicopters, of what could be remains of Noah's Ark on Mt. Ariet.
What about the flood itself?...was this a metaphor too...scientists know something catacylismic happened that wiped out all life a long time ago.

Again, this is your view of "divine power". I don't see "divine power" as being involved in Earthly events in such a fashion.

There are psychic, magical, mind-power types of powers, to be sure. I have witnessed some these directly in my travels in Asia long ago. But the power of God I believe to be explained much more accurately via certain Gnostic and Hindu teachings, as well as teachings from mystical Judaism.

You also failed to answer my question about the return of Christ...is that a metaphor?

You never asked this question of me. You are confusing me with Bosse De Neige, I think.

But for the record, yes, I completely reject the literal view of Christ returning on clouds, or whatever, in corporeal form ( assuming you're referring to the "second coming" ).

For one thing, I don't think that a corporeally returning Christ would be recognized by too many who call themselves Christians. I suspect he'd be dismissed as a Hollywood light and magic trick, or regarded as insane or an evil imposter, simply because I don't think he'd validate the tenets of fundamentalist Christianity (or any other religious fundamentalism that condemns all other pathways to spiritual realization).

Now I know I am wasting my time here,

I have the same sense of "wasting my time", which is why I post sparingly to these forums (that, and I simply don't have huge amounts of free time), although there are some posters here that I enjoy to read. But anyway, we need not view this as an exercise in hopelessness. Like I said, believe what you will, it doesn't irk me. If I write something that someone else takes value in, then good, and you can perhaps rest equally comfortable in that idea as far as your own postings go.

but if you are going to attack the integrity of the bible by seeing all these metaphors...it just won't work on a Christian who happens to believe that God has power.

Again, I have no interest in "working on you". If I write something, it is not in any interest of influencing someone. I simply express what I see and understand and believe and suspect to be true.

Originally posted by widget
We are all dead, already, time being an illusion, we're just slow to notice....

So yeah, that would undoubtedly include you and I both. Explains the smell, doesn't it?

Except I will be raised by Jesus one day....😵

Originally posted by gambit3
The eternal life part does not so much refer to time as to a quality of life.

If you say so..........

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Except I will be raised by Jesus one day....😵

Sure you will - likely on the pointy toe of his cowboy boot!