"How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?"

Originally posted by shavixmir
Surely the establishment wouldn't want me strung up and quartered or anything!!!

Well I wouldn't count on it. There has been some pretty retarded religious viciousness in here recently. To recap...

As well as the "the burning for all eternity in a flesh melting incinerator", while being obviously alive, but actually dead through the 2nd death doctrine support, there has also been several pages of support for allowing children to die if their parents want to deny them the life saving medical care they need. This was to avoid damaging the religious conscience of the fruitcakes. It was a Christian supporting the motion and JW parents on question, so a sort of cross-categorised fundie campaign to kill the child.

Other than that the good news is the JWs have been relatively quite, although Galveston recent had what I can only presume was his forum swan song before he departs permanently for his TV after a particularly nasty lack of "forum etiquette" a few weeks back.

Edit: opps, shhh there he is now, must have been lurking.

Originally posted by shavixmir
Can you quote that for us, please?

And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to TORMENT us before the time? ...

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ...

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 8:28-29; 25:31-34, 41, 46 King James Version (KJV)

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, THE SAME shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT ASCENDTH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name...

And THE BEAST was taken, and with him THE FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone...

And THE DEVIL that deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And WHOSOEVER was NOT FOUND WRITEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Revelation 14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10-15 King James Version (KJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds

And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him [b]two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to TORMENT us before the time? [ ...[text shortened]... TO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Revelation 14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10-15 King James Version (KJV)[/b]

Whoopee doo. Boy THAT really scares me.




NOT.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Whoopee doo. Boy THAT really scares me.




NOT.

The purpose is education, not to scare anyone.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The purpose is education, not to scare anyone.

Education. The art of learning something NEW. Not some man made crap from an ancient text that made little sense even when it was written, thus allowing hundreds of generations of apologists ample opportunity to interpret, cherry pick, rationalize and generally obfuscate the whole thing into worthlessness.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Education. The art of learning something NEW. Not some man made crap from an ancient text that made little sense even when it was written, thus allowing hundreds of generations of apologists ample opportunity to interpret, cherry pick, rationalize and generally obfuscate the whole thing into worthlessness.

Yeah, but it has stood the test of time.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yeah, but it has stood the test of time.

Which is more than your chess rating will.

Originally posted by divegeester
Which is more than your chess rating will.

So what? Who cares?

YouTube

Originally posted by divegeester
[

I don't think I need to do anything - I think I'm doing a pretty good job of exposing this awful erroneous doctrine by using simple examples in Scripture.

Yes, you think you are doing a pretty good job. But you are railing against the utterances of the New Testament as if someone else latter put them there. In spite of your self congratulations, the most important point you fail to address - the passages which invoke our dread ARE there in the New Testament whether we like it or not.

What then can you do?

So you raise some questions which seem logical problems to you about the nature of the second death.

It would not be hard for me to raise similar questions about, let us say, Jesus sitting on the right hand of God.

Is there gravity in heaven?
How does He "sit" up there?
How could Jesus be at God's "right hand" anyway?
If God is omnipresent, where then is His "right hand" side?

You see in spite of objections of these kinds of issues the words of God communicate to us adequately what He intends to impress us with. And the second death or lake of fire, is to be terrified of and avoided by means of the salvation God has extended to us.

You cannot prove that the original NT texts was MINUS these words.
And you have to work pretty hard to convince people that we misunderstand them to the point of error.

This is like me arguing that if you step out of the window of a 10 story building it is only a misunderstanding of some sort that you will fall to the pavement below. No one is going to take you seriously that there is a misunderstanding of the language.

The second death is something that will hurt. Otherwise the Scripture would not say "hurt of the second death".

Revelation 2:11 - "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death."

I think the Scripture communicates adequately the essence of what we are suppose to know. Special arguments that this "hurt" is non-existence or a "second death" as an ultra death has to mean non-existence are not persuasive to many Bible readers.

Some argue that the physics of the matter makes eternal punishment impossible. But you know God so regulated the experience of the Hebrew young men in the blazing furnace of Nebuchchadrezzar (Daniel 3:22-28).

"And the satraps, prefects, and governors, and the king's counselors, being gathered together, saw concerning these men that the fire had no effect on their bodies and that the hair of their heads was not singed, nor had their clothes been affected, nor had the smell of fire come upon them." (v.27)

The Creator could regulate exactly how much effect a fire could have on the three Hebrew men thrown into it. Why couldn't God regulate the effect upwards of downwards according to His will for punishment ?

At any rate, curiosity does not encourage me to want to go to such a second death to find out. It is enough that we know we prefer that our names be written in the Lamb's book of life which will be exempt from this punishment (Rev. 20:15).

What you on the other hand, need to do is to explain how a 2nd death is actually life in an eternal furnace.

I don't really need to give you an exhaustive explanation of the science or physics of the place. I just showed you from Daniel chapter 3 God had control over what a man can experience in a furnace of fire, from a positive salvific perspective. I have no reason to doubt that by that same divine power He can regulate the experience otherwise.

I do not need to explain how God is able to do this. The warning coming from the mouth of Jesus are clear enough to be taken with alarm. And to twist the warnings with an assumption that we misunderstand their horror, requires much more work than to just take them at face value.

God's purpose is to conform His saved ones into the image of Christ. If I have controversy with God today with what He deems as final justice towards those whose names are not written in the book of life, I do not expect to have a contrary opinion to God when the full conformation has brought me to maturity.

The statements are in the New Testament whether we like them or not.
It seems that God reserved this most important information to be uttered primarily by the mouth of the Son of God. You have to blame Christ for our knowledge of eternal punishment.

Originally posted by sonship

I don't think I need to do anything - I think I'm doing a pretty good job of exposing this awful erroneous doctrine by using simple examples in Scripture.

Yes, you think you are doing a pretty good job. But you are railing against the utterances of the New Testament as if someone else latter put them there. In spite of your self ...[text shortened]... y the mouth of the Son of God. You have to blame Christ for our knowledge of eternal punishment.

I'm not reading all this stuff sonship - all I see is "blah blah blah." You need to be more concise, honestly.

Just please explain in brief simple concise terms how a 2nd death -- i.e. it’s a “death” as in the 1st “death”, so it is the end, finito, over, it is an ex life etc…

How can this “death” possibly be eternally living/existing i.e not being “dead” in a burning hell?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not reading all this stuff sonship - all I see is "blah blah blah." You need to be more concise, honestly.

Just please explain in brief simple concise terms how a 2nd death -- i.e. it’s a [b]“death” as in the 1st “death”, so it is the end, finito, over, it is an ex life etc…

How can this “death” possibly be eternally living/existing i.e not being “dead” in a burning hell?[/b]

Good luck with that ..😀

Originally posted by divegeester

I'm not reading all this stuff sonship - all I see is "blah blah blah." You need to be more concise, honestly.

Then you are not up to the task of giving a good reply.
This is your Argument from Boredom.

Get out of the way, and let someone answer who has something serious to consider as a reply.

Just please explain in brief simple concise terms how a 2nd death -- i.e. it’s a “death” as in the 1st “death”, so it is the end, finito, over, it is an ex life etc…

You want to dismiss what I write with it being "blah, blah, blah" but want the respect of me reading your questions, which I spoke to. I am not going to write more to you if you warn me that you are not going to READ anything I write.

Originally posted by sonship

I'm not reading all this stuff sonship - all I see is "blah blah blah." You need to be more concise, honestly.

Then you are not up to the task of giving a good reply.
This is your Argument from Boredom.

Get out of the way, and let someone answer who has something serious to consider as a reply.

[quote]
Just please ...[text shortened]... m not going to write more to you if you warn me that you are not going to READ anything I write.

Lengthy replies are not automatically good. In fact length is a sign that you are waffling and bluffing. I have read through a couple of your long posts and they just make no sense to someone who can read and understand. Your points are disjointed and your argument does not flow well into your conclusions.

The only kind of people who your long posts will appeal to are those who are already brainwashed into believing that Witness Lee or whoever is some kind of saint and therefore he must be right.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Lengthy replies are not automatically good. In fact length is a sign that you are waffling and bluffing. I have read through a couple of your long posts and they just make no sense to someone who can read and understand. Your points are disjointed and your argument does not flow well into your conclusions.

The only kind of people who your long posts will appeal to are those who are already brainwashed into believing that Witness Lee or whoever is some kind of saint and therefore he must be right.

Excuse me but this is a stupid comment. A Stupid comment from you, as is unfortunately customary.

A SAINT is anyone who has become a believer in Christ and in view of being in Christ is SANCTIFIED in position. He or she is a SAINT. We do not graduate to become SAINTS because of some good behavior.

We may go from being defeated saints to being overcoming saints.

Too long a post for you so far? Wake up and read First Corinthians 1:1,2.

Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother,

To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called SAINTS, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours.

All of the Jesus believers in Corinth were saints. The defeated ones were saints and the victorious ones were saints.

I will return latter in the day and speak about death, this dreadful matter, more. The argument which I will examine is "Why isn't the second death a death like being no more in existence?"

I doubt that I have seen even two consecutive sentences written by you on this Forum, over the years, that had a tenth of the spiritual value of any random paragraph in a book by Witness Lee. Sorry to say this. But it is true.

Some theological quacks got a hold of you, and you've been befuddled ever since with your Arminian "Once under the Law Always under the Law" elevator salvation.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Lengthy replies are not automatically good. In fact length is a sign that you are waffling and bluffing. I have read through a couple of your long posts and they just make no sense to someone who can read and understand. Your points are disjointed and your argument does not flow well into your conclusions.

The only kind of people who your long pos ...[text shortened]... since with your Arminian [b] "Once under the Law Always under the Law" elevator salvation.[/b]

Therein lies the most basic flaw of your doctrine. You believe that YOU Sonship know who are saints in Christ and who are not.

Saints are determined by Christ and Christ alone. Christ told Paul and the Apostles about their saintly status.

Saints are NOT determined by you.
Saints are NOT determined by some preconceived statement of belief.
Not everyone who say they believe are saints.

Why not allow Christ to decide who are His saints.