1. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 18:10
    This question was asked and I tought that seeing the question concerns Christians, there are Christians that have put an answer together:

    "God doesn't send you there. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say "yes" or the power to say "no," the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

    In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

    Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people--only the desire to get ahead.

    This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

    We have our catalog of sins. We have rape and incest and murder; and we have them all cataloged and classified--but there isn't one of them (or even put them all together in one big hunk) that comes close to the sin of keeping Jesus Christ out of your life. Did Jesus say, "I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin because they rob banks"-- or, "because they believe not on me"?

    It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area! We expect penalties for doing much less. Life is just built that way.

    You jump off a high building, the law of gravity will take care of you. You might say, "God is love," all the way down, but you're still going to get splattered when you hit the bottom! You break the law of gravity, and it breaks you! You may love your little child, but if he puts his finger up on that hot burner on the gas stove or the electric stove, he's going to get burned!

    Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

    God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences."

    http://christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-and-god.html

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (For Starman 🙂)
    When I post something origional you don't seem to respond. Go ahead and Boo me, it seems like that is your best tactic... But I will gladly respond if you would like to discuss something....
  2. Joined
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    10 Mar '05 18:21
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.
    What about the hundreds of millions of people around the world who will never see a Bible or know what 'Jesus' is? Do they deserve eternal damnation? Has God done all He can to steer them clear of the road to Hell?

    This pure nonsense which you've copied and pasted is well and good if you're lucky enough to be Mr. Yankee Cracker with a middle management job, running water and a pot to sh-t in, but what about those in communist China or nomadic aboriginal tribes across Africa? How will God tell them, at the pearly gates, that they deserve to suffer for all eternity?

    We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell

    Pure ethnocentric poppycock!
  3. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    10 Mar '05 18:31
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    This question was asked and I tought that seeing the question concerns Christians, there are Christians that have put an answer together:

    "God doesn't send you there. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us- ...[text shortened]... that is your best tactic... But I will gladly respond if you would like to discuss something....
    I, for one, encourage you still to post your original thoughts as opposed to this posted information. I know I have "booed" you many times in the past but none of what you cut & paste here strengthens any point you are attempting to make, if that is what you are attempting to do? It does the opposite and I doubt most of us interesting in entertaining into any debate with you are not interested in any material from christiananswers.net.

    I'm not attempting to insult you but you are 19 years old, right? Obviously you are devout but you have only started your life and I think if you open your eyes & ears a bit more you will find there is so much more in the world than what you currently believe. I am also willing to bet by the time you hit 25, you will probably think a bit differently, granted if you change your surroundings between now and then. I'm almost double your age and I am still learning about things.
  4. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 18:34
    Originally posted by darvlay
    What about the hundreds of millions of people around the world who will never see a Bible or know what 'Jesus' is? Do they deserve eternal damnation? Has God done all He can to steer them clear of the road to Hell?

    This pure nonsense which you've copied and pasted is well and good if you're lucky enough to be Mr. Yankee Cracker with a middle manag ...[text shortened]... ave to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell[/i]

    Pure ethnocentric poppycock!
    What about the hundreds of millions of people around the world who will never see a Bible or know what 'Jesus' is?


    The Word of God says that the grace of God has been revealed to all men. God has given each person a concsience. In some way or another God has revealed himself to mankind.

    Do they deserve eternal damnation? Has God done all He can to steer them clear of the road to Hell?

    All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Jesus has paid the price. The gift of God is salvation to all those who believe.

  5. Joined
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    10 Mar '05 18:42
    The Word of God says that the grace of God has been revealed to all men. God has given each person a concsience. In some way or another God has revealed himself to mankind.

    All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Jesus has paid the price. The gift of God is salvation to all those who believe.

    These two statements don't follow at all. I don't believe this for a second and nor should you. When looking upon the marvels of the Earth, someone who has never heard of Christianity or read the Bible may indeed believe in a higher power or a God. But how would one hear that the only road to salvation is through Jesus Christ without actually being told or reading about Him?

    And if you are saying that all of mankind will sooner or later know about Jesus Christ... how can you say that with 100% confidence??? That's outrageous!
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    10 Mar '05 18:52
    dj2becker,

    I would appreciate your personal opinion in response to this question:

    "How will God tell them [those who have never heard of Christ], at the pearly gates, that they deserve to suffer for all eternity?"

    Is this something a God who is full of 'mercy' and 'grace' could do without batting a Holy eye?
  7. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 18:52
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    I, for one, encourage you still to post your original thoughts as opposed to this posted information. I know I have "booed" you many times in the past but none of what you cut & paste here strengthens any point you are attempting to make, if that is what you are attempting to do? It does the opposite and I doubt most of us interesting in entertaining in ...[text shortened]... undings between now and then. I'm almost double your age and I am still learning about things.
    Thanks a lot for your post. What you have said is correct. But if you knew about the surroundings in which is have grown up it might be easier for you to understand my stance.

    Now imagine you were me. You are 19 years old and you live on a Mission station is South Africa. You grow up in the midst of a revival. You see miracles happening around you and you experience God pouring out his spirit in the community that you live in. You grow up with the Zulu nation that was one of the most feared tribes in Africa. You see the hand of God streching out and changing the lives of the people around you. You hear the Zulu's testifying that God is not only for the white man. You see whitch doctors come to repentance and hear them confessing their their sins and changing overnight and going forth to tell others that Jesus Christ has set them free from the bondage of Satan.

    If you grew up in my situation you would not have to think twice. You would know that there is a living God.
  8. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 19:10
    Originally posted by darvlay
    dj2becker,

    I would appreciate your personal opinion in response to this question:

    "How will God tell them [those who have never heard of Christ], at the pearly gates, that they deserve to suffer for all eternity?"

    Is this something a God who is full of 'mercy' and 'grace' could do without batting a Holy eye?
    I am not God so I cannot speak for him. I can only give you my own honest opinion. I believe that God is just and he will judge justly. I believe that in some way or another God reveals himself to each person. He has given all of us a concsience. God is just and he will not jugde in an unjust manner. That is enough for me. I believe that God reveals himself each person and those that reject him and spit on the blood that was paid by Jesus on the cross deserve the appropriate punnishment.
  9. Joined
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    10 Mar '05 19:11
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    (For Starman 🙂)
    When I post something origional you don't seem to respond. Go ahead and Boo me, it seems like that is your best tactic... But I will gladly respond if you would like to discuss something....
    I apologise, I have been somewhat busy of late. You are right, it is not fair of me to demand your originality and then not take part in such debate. I will endeavour to debate with you in the near future. I would say for now, that I am not entirely convinced that adding a covering sentence at the start and a link at the end of the piece constitutes originality, but I suppose it is a start. I would still prefer if you did it all in your own words, but I guess the importance of this is something only you can work out for yourself.
  10. Standard memberJoe Fist
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    10 Mar '05 19:16
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Thanks a lot for your post. What you have said is correct. But if you knew about the surroundings in which is have grown up it might be easier for you to understand my stance.

    Now imagine you were me. You are 19 years old and you live on a Mission station is South Africa. You grow up in the midst of a revival. You see miracles happening around you and ...[text shortened]... in my situation you would not have to think twice. You would know that there is a living God.
    But isn't it possible someone could have had similiar circumstances to you and not have had the same revelation you have had? Some could be worse and some could be better.

    The point I'm getting at is your beliefs are subjective. Any person could say "if you grew up in my situation" you would most likely believe what I believe and that would not be accurate.
  11. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 19:291 edit
    Originally posted by Joe Fist
    But isn't it possible someone could have had similiar circumstances to you and not have had the same revelation you have had? Some could be worse and some could be better.

    The point I'm getting at is your beliefs are subjective. A ...[text shortened]... st likely believe what I believe and that would not be accurate.
    But isn't it possible someone could have had similiar circumstances to you and not have had the same revelation you have had? Some could be worse and some could be better.

    What you are saying is true. There are many of my freinds that have grown up with me and have not had exactly the same revelation as me. There are some that are worse off than me and other that might be better off. But the fact is that we all experienced the close to the same thing. Each of us had to make a descision of whether we wanted to accept the truth with which we were confronted. I did some of my friends chose not to. I can tell you truthfully that none of those that chose not to accept Jesus Christ are better off (in a spiritual sense).

    The point I'm getting at is your beliefs are subjective. Any person could say "if you grew up in my situation" you would most likely believe what I believe and that would not be accurate.

    What I was saying was that if you grew up in my situation you would would understand my stance better. I did not say that you would have exactly the same beliefs. However the chances are very great that you would not be an agnostic.
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    10 Mar '05 19:34
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am not God so I cannot speak for him. I can only give you my own honest opinion. I believe that God is just and he will judge justly. I believe that in some way or another God reveals himself to each person. He has given all of us a concsience. God is just and he will not jugde in an unjust manner. That is enough for me. I believe that God reveals himsel ...[text shortened]... and spit on the blood that was paid by Jesus on the cross deserve the appropriate punnishment.
    But you speak for God all the time when you tell us the only road to heaven is through Jesus Chrst, His Son. Not all Christians believe that specific tenet. Surely if you can speak for Him on such matters like the eternal salvation of our soul, you can speak for him when i ask a simple question with respect to His mercy.

    In case you missed my previous rebuttal, I stated:

    The Word of God says that the grace of God has been revealed to all men. God has given each person a concsience. In some way or another God has revealed himself to mankind.

    All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Jesus has paid the price. The gift of God is salvation to all those who believe.

    These two statements don't follow at all. I don't believe this for a second and nor should you. When looking upon the marvels of the Earth, someone who has never heard of Christianity or read the Bible may indeed believe in a higher power or a God. But how would one hear that the only road to salvation is through Jesus Christ without actually being told or reading about Him?

    And if you are saying that all of mankind will sooner or later know about Jesus Christ... how can you say that with 100% confidence??? That's outrageous!

    I would appreciate if you address the last sentence, specifically. How can you be so certain that every man will hear the message of Christ? I don't think you have taken my question seriously. You brush it off by saying God has revealed himself to all mankind. Fine. If God is the creator, he has most definitely revealed His works to us. But the message of Christ is a completely different story which is something absolutely necessary to know if you have any hope in hell of making it to Heaven. I sincerely hope you (or maybe Darfius or Nemesio) get around to answering my question.
  13. The moral highground
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    Could god create a stone he couldant move?
  14. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 20:02
    Originally posted by darvlay
    But you speak for God all the time when you tell us the only road to heaven is through Jesus Chrst, His Son. Not all Christians believe that specific tenet. Surely if you can speak for Him on such matters like the eternal salvation of our soul, you can speak for him when i ask a simple question with respect to His mercy.

    In case you missed my previous ...[text shortened]... Heaven. I sincerely hope you (or maybe Darfius or Nemesio) get around to answering my question.
    But you speak for God all the time when you tell us the only road to heaven is through Jesus Chrst, His Son. Not all Christians believe that specific tenet. Surely if you can speak for Him on such matters like the eternal salvation of our soul, you can speak for him when i ask a simple question with respect to His mercy.

    I said that I cannot speak for God regarding the fate of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ.

    But for those that have heard about Jesus Christ and that have a Bible can read for themselves what God has to say. Jesus claims "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father by through me".
    Jesus said that His words will judge us.

    All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Jesus has paid the price. The gift of God is salvation to all those who believe.

    These two statements don't follow at all. I don't believe this for a second and nor should you.


    I believe that the Bible is the word of God. This is what the Bible says. You may not believe the Bible but I do.

    And if you are saying that all of mankind will sooner or later know about Jesus Christ... how can you say that with 100% confidence??? That's outrageous!

    I believe the Bible. It says "...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
    By the way the Bible does make some seemingly outrageous claims...


    I would appreciate if you address the last sentence, specifically. How can you be so certain that every man will hear the message of Christ? I don't think you have taken my question seriously. You brush it off by saying God has revealed himself to all mankind. Fine. If God is the creator, he has most definitely revealed His works to us. But the message of Christ is a completely different story which is something absolutely necessary to know if you have any hope in hell of making it to Heaven. I sincerely hope you (or maybe Darfius or Nemesio) get around to answering my question.

    This is indeed a serious question. Do you not think that is the reason why Jesus told his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations? Do you not think that is the reason I am posting on this forum? I think you should not be concerned about other people that may not have heard about Jesus. Because they will probably (and I say probably because that is my opinion) be judged differently to those that have heard the message of Jesus. And as I said before God is a righteous judge and he will judge them according to the light that they had, e.g. how they obeyed their consciences. But if I were you I would not worry about things that God can sort out. But as for you, you have heard the truth of Christ and it is up to you to accept it or reject it.
  15. Standard memberdj2becker
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    10 Mar '05 20:04
    Originally posted by Brother Edwin
    Could god create a stone he couldant move?
    You are putting your own limitations of God. God has no limitations, so he could definately create a rock big enough that you cannot move. Maybe you can try Everest?
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