22 May 06
Originally posted by STANGTwo points here...
But he would have been absolutely certain about having life after his death.
He could not know what it is like to not be that certain.
Firstly , certainty does not completely take the sting out of a situation. You might be certain that a parachute will hold your weight but you are still going to be scared when you jump out of the aeroplane.
Secondly, what happened in the Christian story was that Jesus had some idea of the future ahead and a strong conviction that his Father would not let him down , but it was still an act of faith and courage. He even tried to bargain with his Father to get out of it once he sensed what lay ahead ( "If it be possible take this cup from me" ).
This was clearly a test of faith, courage and conviction. He wasn't just being asked to die but to do something else even more scary.
22 May 06
Originally posted by STANGThat's a pretty poor reason, and it belies a lack of even moderate sophistication as it relates to history and power/governments. ALL governments have used one authorizing power base or another throughout time. For instance, our country's fathers used the authority of the imagery of God to bestow value on individual's decisions, certifying those decisions as worthy of as much respect as God's (albeit with a significant weight difference).
I began openly questioning Christianity because ...
I believe that Christianity is being used as a front by Bush, manipulating Christian fanatics to achieve his personal financial interests in oil and manufacturers of weaponary.
Bush is so similar to Bin Laden in that regard ...
... except that Bush is a threat to people and the environment on a much ...[text shortened]... n and women have died as a result of his actions and he has so little regard for global warming.
Any one who wishes to collect followers is required to use (or establish) some base of power conference, or their authority will be limited to their personality, and thus without long-range potential. However, abuse of a legitimate power source does not negate the validity of its authority.
22 May 06
Originally posted by STANGSomeone has probably already said it. The fall of Adam and Eve in Eden allowed for these horrible things to happen. I'm sure there are just as many miracles for all the bad things as well.
Sophie is 5 years old this year.
In 2003, a car crashed into her child care centre and burst in to flame.
Sophie lost both feet, as well as fingers and suffered third degree burns to 85% of her body.
On 5 May this year, she was being pushed in a stroller when another car hit her.
Sophie was thrown 18 metres by the impact, sufferring head, facial, c ...[text shortened]... ve in god. You may as well believe in Allah.
What can be so wrong with having a holy jihad ?
22 May 06
Originally posted by STANGRead the book of Job.
Sophie is 5 years old this year.
In 2003, a car crashed into her child care centre and burst in to flame.
Sophie lost both feet, as well as fingers and suffered third degree burns to 85% of her body.
On 5 May this year, she was being pushed in a stroller when another car hit her.
Sophie was thrown 18 metres by the impact, sufferring head, facial, c ...[text shortened]... ve in god. You may as well believe in Allah.
What can be so wrong with having a holy jihad ?
He lost all his Children.
22 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI don't agree. It's claimed that Jesus could perform miracles, which would have helped give him absolute certainty about there being life after death.
[b]But he would have been absolutely certain about having life after his death.
As His humanity was informed by the same sourse available to us, i.e., the word of God, we have that same certainty.
He could not no how it feels like to be human.
He would wonder why we fight for what we have now. If there was a god that clearly performed miracles now, rather than have us try to believe the word of god as written by pedophiles and the likes, then we would be more inclined to believe in life after death and less inclined to fight for what we have now.
It's claimed that we have free will but, if there is a god, he is hiding his truth from us. That's like raising a child in a basement and giving them all the free will they want without showing them the outside world.
23 May 06
Originally posted by STANGWhy does this show that there isn't a God?
Sophie is 5 years old this year.
In 2003, a car crashed into her child care centre and burst in to flame.
Sophie lost both feet, as well as fingers and suffered third degree burns to 85% of her body.
On 5 May this year, she was being pushed in a stroller when another car hit her.
Sophie was thrown 18 metres by the impact, sufferring head, facial, c ...[text shortened]... ve in god. You may as well believe in Allah.
What can be so wrong with having a holy jihad ?
23 May 06
Originally posted by STANGTo be honest I don't know how certain he was. All the evidence suggests that he was pretty damn scared , which doesn't sound like certainty. I think it was as much about faith and trust as certainty. I think your misconception is due to the way that the divinity of Jesus has been exaggerated at the expense of his humanity. Your conception of divinity is based on concepts of all knowing , all powerfulness but you have forgotten that it takes power to become vulnerable , wholeness to be willing to be broken and willingness to walk through fear and doubt to be able to find certainty. You have a mechanistic , computerised view of his divinity.
But he would have been absolutely certain about having life after his death.
He could not know what it is like to not be that certain.
How do you know what he felt or didn't feel? At least I can own that I know it by faith?
24 May 06
Originally posted by STANGIt's claimed that Jesus could perform miracles, which would have helped give him absolute certainty about there being life after death.
I don't agree. It's claimed that Jesus could perform miracles, which would have helped give him absolute certainty about there being life after death.
He could not no how it feels like to be human.
He would wonder why we fight for what we have now. If there was a god that clearly performed miracles now, rather than have us try to believe the word of god ...[text shortened]... basement and giving them all the free will they want without showing them the outside world.
That He performed miracles should seem a small matter, given He figured out Who He was by age twelve. Very few people ever figure out who they are within the span of their lifetimes, let alone by such a young age.
Performing miracles does not necessarily bestow any unusual characteristics of confidence upon the one so bestowed. Likewise, the miracles performed were not intended to serve the purposes you suggest.
He could not no how it feels like to be human.
Actually, He was uniquely qualified to know what it "feels like to be human." Only three people ever trod this earth initially created or born with all three human aspects: body, soul and spirit. Not to diminish the rest of us born with but two aspects (body and soul), but those so born simply cannot know what it means to be human as originally intended.
You certainly could make the point that He did not know what it was like to suffer from the human condition of sin, but it is unlikely you would want to fault Him for that, right?
If there was a god that clearly performed miracles now,
Again, miracles were limited. Think of the people for whom miracles were performed. They all died eventually.
rather than have us try to believe the word of god as written by pedophiles and the likes
Huh? Pedophiles? Which of the 40 authors are you accusing?
I believe that anyone who objectively considers and studies the Bible will come to a different conclusion than you have thus far. For me, I'll take the word of God in biblical form over a miracle any day of the week.
It's claimed that we have free will but, if there is a god, he is hiding his truth from us.
Right in plain sight. Genius, don't you think?
27 May 06
who are we to say we have a deal with god. bad things are just going to happen and there is nothing you can do about that. we should be thnkful at least we get to experaince life even if its a sort one. god gave us free will that means that we get to chosse to kill someone or be good. just as hitler chosse to kill millouns of jews. thats the price we pay for free will.
27 May 06
It took the logic of the OP and put it to use this morning.
Upon pissing all over my toilet seat in my sleepy stupor, I became enraged and screamed obscenitites at the heavens for several minutes. The urine currently resides on the toilet seat, and shall remain there untill God comes to wipe it up. Additionally, I also blame Bush because he once said something about God.
Best Regards,
Omnislash
27 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut what did Jesus, who was supposed to be God according to the orthodox interpretation of the Trinity, mean when he cried out "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani" just before expiring?
Before I start let me say that this is not intended to be a trite or easy solution to this thorny issue and I am not attempting to deny or downplay the suffering here. However , I still expect some heated responses.
And what will happen to Sophie in the end ? If her soul is ressurected and her life is raised to eternal life that might make her shou and I know it in a human way ..I'm with you all the way into the void and beyond....