How do you explain design without a designer?

Originally posted by Darfius
Do you people make all your decisions based on the consensus of scientists? Did you decide what to eat based on the consensus of scientists?

Look around you. Paul said no one would have an excuse on that great and terrible day of the Lord because His handiwork is all around us. And you're sitting here asking if it's OK to believe that if other scien ...[text shortened]...

Oh, and then only a planet with all those prerequesites that spontaneously generates life.

No, I don't make my decisions based on the consensus of scientists.

I'm not asking anyone if it's ok to believe anything. I listen to the different positions, and I feel science has the most plausible explanation of how life originated.

Nature can do a lot of things scientists can't. So what?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Sorry got the site wrong, it's: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/life-complexity.html

Giving the source that you copied from is very important; you should have done it in the same post you pasted the copied material.

However, this source has zero support for the claim that

Today, most scientists are convinced that life could never have come into being without some form of highly intelligent designer.

Totally unsupported claims are easy to make. For example, I am fifty feet tall. Since I said it, it must be true right?

Originally posted by Darfius
You are alive right now out of a display of love. It is your choice to love HIm back. He respects that choice by placing you in a place away from Him for eternity. Another display of love. But since He is both infinite love and infinite justice, He also has to punish those who don't follow His rules. Otherwise, what kind of leader would He be?

And p ...[text shortened]... d of, except the glory of our God. He, however, is proud because there is nothing He can't do.

If you give something on the pretext of getting something back, this is not true sharing. If god says that I give you life therefore you must love me back, if you do not then I will punish you. This is not love its a form of oppression. What kind of leader creates a race of people vastly inferior in ability to himself, then gives them a free choice, and then respects this free choice by punishing them for eternity. This not respect, this is no different to what a dictator does to people that don't follow his orders. True respect would be to show them the errors of their thinking, in a way that there was absolute no doubt of his existence, then give them another chance. "And forgive us, as we forgive those who tresspass against us" A good leader leads by example, what sort of leader instructs his people in one way, then doesn't follow his own way ?


There is at least one thing that god cannot do. He can't make all free choosing humans love him. Design Intelligence ? For such a powerful being, this must be bordering on design incompetence.

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
If you give something on the pretext of getting something back, this is not true sharing. If god says that I give you life therefore you must love me back, if you do not then I will punish you. This is not love its a form of oppression. What kind of leader creates a race of people vastly inferior in ability to himself, then gives them a free choice, and ...[text shortened]... Design Intelligence ? For such a powerful being, this must be bordering on design incompetence.

He does forgive you. Just accept Jesus Christ. You're the one CHOOSING not to do so. It's not like He's forcing you to do anything. Your pride is.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Thanks.

So it is perfectly scientific to make statements about what happened in the past, even if there is no evidence of those events being observed by anyone.

Yes, in that case I agree. But not in all cases... In your example you said that it is scientific to presume that you had an ancestor living in the time of Jesus eventhough you have not seen him. Yes this I agree with to be scientific "logic". But what I am saying is that your belief system influences how you draw conclusions about the past. Why would it be scientific to conclude that your ancestor living a few million years back was was a baboon if you have not observed baboons "evolvong" into humans at present and in all of recorded history? Why would it not be scientific to conclude that humans have always been humans as that is what we observe happening today and in all of recorded history?

Originally posted by Darfius
He does forgive you. Just accept Jesus Christ. You're the one CHOOSING not to do so. It's not like He's forcing you to do anything. Your pride is.

Are you saying that god forgives those people in hell, but he continues to punishes them for eternity anyway ?

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
Are you saying that god forgives those people in hell, but he continues to punishes them for eternity anyway ?

No, on average, you have 75 years to accept Jesus. You choose not to, and God respects your wish.

Originally posted by Darfius
No, on average, you have 75 years to accept Jesus. You choose not to, and God respects your wish.

So what happens then ? what does christian doctrine say ?

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
So what happens then ? what does christian doctrine say ?

If you die without accepting Christ you go to hell. But since you know this now, why not accept Him now?

Originally posted by Darfius
If you die without accepting Christ you go to hell. But since you know this now, why not accept Him now?

what happens in hell ?

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
what happens in hell ?

Opinion is divided, some people believe in literal flames engulfing them for eternity. I, however, think it's literally a place of isolation for eternity. A place where you can worship yourself for eternity rather than God, as you desired to do on earth.

But it's silly to focus on hell. Wouldn't you rather focus on the God who died on the cross for you, Jesus Christ? Wow. That took a lot of love. He's worth worshipping. Especially because it was His sacrifice that God looks through when He looks at one who accepts Jesus. He loves us all, but He can only forgive those who ask for forgiveness through Christ Jesus.

Originally posted by Darfius
Opinion is divided, some people believe in literal flames engulfing them for eternity. I, however, think it's literally a place of isolation for eternity. A place where you can worship yourself for eternity rather than God, as you desire ...[text shortened]... n only forgive those who ask for forgiveness through Christ Jesus.

Lets discuss JC later for the time being I need more clarification on hell!
When you say that opinion is divided do you mean that nobody really knows ? What does the bible say ?

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
Lets discuss JC later for the time being I need more clarification on hell!
When you say that opinion is divided do you mean that nobody really knows ? What does the bible say ?

Here my Lord Jesus speaks about hell in a parable:

"The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” But Abraham replied, “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” He answered, “Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this palce of torment.” Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.” “No, father Abraham,” he said, “but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.” He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be conviced even if someone rises from the dead.” [Luke 16:19-31].

Originally posted by Darfius
Here my Lord Jesus speaks about hell in a parable:

"The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and c ...[text shortened]... ets, they will not be conviced even if someone rises from the dead.” [Luke 16:19-31].

This paragraph seems to indicate that Hell is in fact a form of punishment (the rich man is in torment & agony). And it seems to indicate that it is for all eternity (nobody allowed to cross great chasm). Also it does not make any reference to god forgiving the people in hell. This seems to conflict with your answer of earlier, When I asked you if god forgives the people in hell, but punishes them anyway, do you agree ?

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
This paragraph seems to indicate that Hell is in fact a form of punishment (the rich man is in torment & agony). And it seems to indicate that it is for all eternity (nobody allowed to cross great chasm). Also it does not make any reference to god forgiving the people in hell. This seems to conflict with your answer of earlier, When I asked you if god forgives the people in hell, but punishes them anyway, do you agree ?

I never said God forgave people in hell. I said I wasn't sure if they were burned forever. It is of course a place of torment, but I'm not sure about fire, I think fire is figurative. I think the eternal isolation from God is the torture.