How do you forgive god?

Originally posted by Umalakas
Ok, let's put this in simple terms. Say a kid is born SHORT, and everyone in school makes fun of him because he is short, and the guy in his teens cannot get a girlfriend because he is short, and whenever he's in a job interview against someone with the same skills, the taller one gets the job always. Is it not god's fault that he's born short and thus he suffers?

Can we take much more devistating examples of what I think is your point?

Example 1: In a discussion I had awhile ago back with Halitose which touched upon his extraordinary work with AIDS victims in Africa, he mentioned a very young girl who most likely contracted this disease by being sexually abused by her uncle. Is it not unreasonable that this young child curse God for her existence?

Example 2: Natural disaster victims.

Example 3: Civilian casualities of war

Example 4: The Handicapped who are just aware of their condition to know they cannot enjoy the fruits of life that most of us healthy folk take full advanatge of.

Example 5: Victims of violent crimes

So the common answer to much of this is: Well God created mankind with free will so it is not His fault. Why not? Why can't all mankind be implanted with the inability to harm each other and the compulsion to serve each other? Is free will such a great thing? In some circumstances such as censorship and equal rights yeah it's wonderful but what about working for the common global (not national or racial) good?

EDIT - Example 3: Civilian casualities of war (I guess if they were "casualities" they wouldn't do much cursing 🙄 ) So how about Civilian innocent bystanders of war.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
I'm, I guess, spiritual but not religious but without being sarcastic why do you feel god owes you anything? I am assuming you feel slighted in some way, right? If that is correct what do you think god should do to make it up to you?

I don't know if god really sins. After all these are his rules, right? So he can do what he wants.

Might makes right eh?

Originally posted by telerion
You have stepped into a writhing pit of fundamentalist my friend. This supposed god of theirs conceived of sin, delineated it, gave it potential, and finally introduced a system in which he knew sin would obtain with certainty. Some of them think he will complete his little game by with a magnificient eternal bonfire.

You have every right to complain. This god of theirs is either wretchedly psychotic or supremely negligent.

Don't confuse the real God with the imagined God.

Originally posted by Umalakas
I feel god has punished me and god has sinned. How do I forgive him and what's the process for doing this?

Write me a nice letter saying 'I forgive you.'

Then send me £100.

Hey presto! I'm forgiven.

Original: Ok, let's put this in simple terms. Say a kid is born SHORT, and everyone in school makes fun of him because he is short, and the guy in his teens cannot get a girlfriend because he is short, and whenever he's in a job interview against someone with the same skills, the taller one gets the job always. Is it not god's fault that he's born short and thus he suffers?
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Interesting. Take short out and insert black! Now that's a conversation.

Originally posted by Umalakas
Ok, let's put this in simple terms. Say a kid is born SHORT, and everyone in school makes fun of him because he is short, and the guy in his teens cannot get a girlfriend because he is short, and whenever he's in a job interview against someone with the same skills, the taller one gets the job always. Is it not god's fault that he's born short and thus he suffers?

mateulose - is that you?

(Sorry, had to ask.)

If people in school make fun of you for being "SHORT", then it's because you let them. If you don't get the job you want, it's either because you're ill-prepared, unqualified or not confident in your own abilities (okay - you might lose some jobs to prejudice, but that's a rarity).

How short are you anyway? 4'?

As Joe Fist points out, there are people with far more serious problems than yours in the world. Thank the Lord for all the blessings you have.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Can we take much more devistating examples of what I think is your point?

Example 1: In a discussion I had awhile ago back with Halitose which touched upon his extraordinary work with AIDS victims in Africa, he mentioned a very young girl who most likely contracted this disease by being sexually abused by her uncle. Is it not unreasonable that this youn ...[text shortened]... alities" they wouldn't do much cursing 🙄 ) So how about Civilian innocent bystanders of war.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:3-10)

Just a personal observation - in all the cases of people I've met who've been devastated by war, natural disasters or personal ill-health, I've yet to meet a person who's lost his/her faith in God as a result. It always seems to be the people who're not directly involved who raise these questions.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Can we take much more devistating examples of what I think is your point?

Example 1: In a discussion I had awhile ago back with Halitose which touched upon his extraordinary work with AIDS victims in Africa, he mentioned a very young girl who most likely contracted this disease by being sexually abused by her uncle. Is it not unreasonable that this youn ...[text shortened]... alities" they wouldn't do much cursing 🙄 ) So how about Civilian innocent bystanders of war.

I disagree.

You talk of disasters and death. You talk of child molesting and abuse.
These are not God’s doings. These belong to the whispers of the devil
into man.

God is capable of stopping such acts. God can make man into Angels. Oh
yes, He made Angels too didn’t He?

This life is a test. Whatever you see around you, good or evil, the people
will be accounted for it. No matter how small and no matter how big.
These examples make the good in us shine, we donate money, organise
charities, adopt parentless infants..

Some of us don’t give a F*** about these disasters, and those with such
bad intentions, shall be accounted for their greed and selfishness.

God gave us a choice. He showed us the path. If I deviate, then why
should I curse God?

Its like if you have two kids, one steals a lollypop from the other, the
second cries off then start to curse the parents???!!!

Doesn’t make sense to me.

EDIT; Man should be patient. With this, God will reward him. If not in this
life, then in the latter, better, eternal life. Those unfortunates of us who
suffer this life will not be forgotten, for their endurance and patience they
will be rewarded.

Originally posted by Peachy
I disagree.

You talk of disasters and death. You talk of child molesting and abuse.
These are not God’s doings. These belong to the whispers of the devil
into man.

God is capable of stopping such acts. God can make man into Angels. Oh
yes, He made Angels too didn’t He?

This life is a test. Whatever you see around you, good or evil, the people ...[text shortened]... other, the
second cries off then start to curse the parents???!!!

Doesn’t make sense to me.

With all due respect, I disagree with what you wrote:

This life is a test. Whatever you see around you, good or evil, the people will be accounted for it. No matter how small and no matter how big. These examples make the good in us shine, we donate money, organise charities, adopt parentless infants.

Who is this "test" for? God? Why? He created all of this, right? I am not saying the world is completely evil and yes there are examples of goodness by what you cited but what purpose does Evil (define it anyway you wish) have for existence? Why cannot all of mankind start with eternal bliss (and I know some of you out there are saying "the second you accept Christ as your savior, bliss is yours". That may be what you believe and I respect that but I personally don't believe it).

I am not familiar with hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis etc being the work of the devil. Fine I will accept your premise about violent crimes and war being the work of Satan (although I really don't but at least that to me is somewhat plausible). What about cancer? MS? Down Syndrome? Is this the work of Satan or more of God's test?

The test does not make any sense to me?

The idea of checks and balances does not make any sense to me?

The idea that because I live what is commonly referred to as a "decent" life (I'm far from a saint but I am pretty much regarded as a kind hearted person by those who matter most to me) but because I don't subscribe to any belief system that I am doomed to eternal damnation does not make any sense to me?

The idea that a Supreme Being really cares if two people of the same sex love each other romantically and will send them into eternal damnation doesn't make sense to me?

These are just a few.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
With all due respect, I disagree with what you wrote:

[b]This life is a test. Whatever you see around you, good or evil, the people will be accounted for it. No matter how small and no matter how big. These examples make the good in us shine, we donate money, organise charities, adopt parentless infants.

Who is this "test" for? God? Why? He c ...[text shortened]... ly and will send them into eternal damnation doesn't make sense to me?

These are just a few.[/b]

A lot of questions but fair enough we have a different point of view. I
also respect your response, its well worthy the debate.

You might be familiar with the story about Adam and Eve. The Torah,
The Bible and The Quran mention it, some slightly varied than others. In
short, Adam and Eve lived in Bless. Lived in Heaven. God assigned a
“Test”, the Tree, and they failed it when they listened to Satan whispers.

Natural disasters are there as a reminder, they are there to test man’s
compassion for his brother, they are there so we can study them and
improve our lives, there are many reasons why God allows them. They
are also there to those that cursed God and disobeyed his Will; such as
Noah and his people.

God tests us not only when we follow a religion. The true intentions count
a great lot. If you live your decent life and mean no harm to your
brethren of mankind, then you will be rewarded.

I hope this clears some of the questions.

interesting question
god cannot sin period
he is all above the veil of judgement that we have
if you refer back to genesis in the bible ...the fall of man was because we ate of the tree of knowlege of good and evil...
before that things just were ,,,,they were not good nor were they evil
they just were ...after gaining that knowlege..god drove man out of the garden ...were discovered we were naked...we had to start working to eat etc,and we had to procreate by physical means
most important ...we gained the knowlege of what is good and what is evil...thats why we judge things ourself as being good or bad
good and evil are a matter of perspective...what is good for you or helps you...may not be good or helpfull to someone else
this tells me that before the fall man was a pure spirt being
much like god..and after the fall...we became more animal or flesh like beings
so i guess if you "THINK" god sinned against you
it is your perception of god that is wrong and the sin is upon you
i think it is human nature to blame god for giving us the shaft
when in reality ....we shafted ourselves
cheers
art

Originally posted by Umalakas
I feel god has punished me and god has sinned. How do I forgive him and what's the process for doing this?

How foolish are ye who presume to understand the mysterious ways of God Almighty!!

God is a bright, beautiful feathery Duck on the smooth waters of freedom and justice. Man cannot understand the ways of the Duck, for man is a non-duck and cannot grasp the thoughts that fill the mind of the Mighty Duck. If the Duck buries His head in the water, is He going for a juicy bug or is He just wetting His head or is He performing some strange Duckish water ritual? A man standing on shore cannot know!!! For the ways of the Duck are mysterious and man is rife with non-Duckiness! So too when the Duck quacks does man not comprehend, for man is a non-quacker and cannot understand all the seemingly weird quacking noises. Only with a leap of faith can man gain the tools (magic Ducky decoder rings, esoteric and mystical Ducky knowledge, etc.) that enable him to understand the ways and quacks of the Almighty Duck. Only then can the man infuse his entire being with the Duck and float beside His Almighty Duckiness on the tranquil waters of truth and peace.

Only then, my friend, will you see that to place moral responsibility on God is to place a bead of water on His Ducky back.

Originally posted by Peachy
A lot of questions but fair enough we have a different point of view. I
also respect your response, its well worthy the debate.

You might be familiar with the story about Adam and Eve. The Torah,
The Bible and The Quran mention it, some slightly varied than others. In short, Adam and Eve lived in Bless. Lived in Heaven. God assigned a “Test”, the Tree, ...[text shortened]...
brethren of mankind, then you will be rewarded.

I hope this clears some of the questions.

You might be familiar with the story about Adam and Eve. The Torah, The Bible and The Quran mention it, some slightly varied than others. In short, Adam and Eve lived in Bless. Lived in Heaven. God assigned a “Test”, the Tree, and they failed it when they listened to Satan whispers.

Actually I have had 12 years of a Catholic education and although I could not quote scripture, I think I have a fairly common knowledge of the more common Bible stories. I apologize for repeating my stance as I have in most of the threads I have participated in Spirituality but again I say why? Why would God put the apple there in the first place? Why didn't God create Lucifer with the incapacity to want to rise against Him? The common answer I have received from those who believe is because it is God's plan or "faith"? I can see how a person could go to that point to try explain the unexplainable and I guess in some respects I do the same but the answer for me is not necessarily Christ. It's not any of the religions I am somewhat familiar with because, for me, they are all lacking. On the other hand, Atheism really does not make sense to me either but I should check myself before rwingett checks in 😉

Again with respect,

JF

Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]You might be familiar with the story about Adam and Eve. The Torah, The Bible and The Quran mention it, some slightly varied than others. In short, Adam and Eve lived in Bless. Lived in Heaven. God assigned a “Test”, the Tree, and they failed it when they listened to Satan whispers.

Actually I have had 12 years of a Catholic education and although ...[text shortened]... to me either but I should check myself before rwingett checks in 😉

Again with respect,

JF[/b]

You might then be interested in my "argument for free will/evil and suffering" thread. I think it's on page 2, I can bump it if you like...