Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do people in hell have the option to repent and go to heaven?

I like the Old Testament imagery of the "refiner's fire. Unlike the hell of some of our Revelation scholars, this kind of fire is purposeful in that the refiner carefully watches over the fire to make sure that refinement takes place and is not destruction. What emerges is void of the impurities.

One other thing that may make this unpalatable to many is we all get "refined."

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I say that it matters just as much as the rest of your scenario. You say the woman was a religious person who followed the teachings of Jesus. Does that mean your woman simply adhered to a set of rules, or does it mean that she actually did what Christ commanded, i.e., trusted in Him for her salvation instead of herself?

The distinction is relevant be ...[text shortened]... is desired destination. Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?

Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?

In your view, can one then be eternally happy in hell?

Originally posted by kirksey957
I like the Old Testament imagery of the "refiner's fire. Unlike the hell of some of our Revelation scholars, this kind of fire is purposeful in that the refiner carefully watches over the fire to make sure that refinement takes place and is not destruction. What emerges is void of the impurities.

One other thing that may make this unpalatable to many is we all get "refined."

And this is the understanding of some of the earliest church fathers...

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?

In your view, can one then be eternally happy in hell?[/b]

No, that's what makes it hell.

As God is the source from which all happiness is derived, one can only realize the same in conjunction with Him--- directly or otherwise. The few who refuse to adjoin themselves to such a Source may receive the temporary succor which comes from the knowledge that one is getting ones own way. However, such relief is short-lived, lasting only (at best) the span of one's lifetime. At the end of that deluded life, such ones receive their demands.

Their insistence that God is not the source of happiness, but that rather, they will be the arbiters, is proof enough of their desires. God, ever the gentleman, allows them their desires.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do people in hell have the option to repent and go to heaven?

One could speculate that they do . However , since they would have already turned down every chance to repent offered them in order to be there in the first place.......

Originally posted by dottewell
What a crock.

Why?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
No, that's what makes it hell.

As God is the source from which all happiness is derived, one can only realize the same in conjunction with Him--- directly or otherwise. The few who refuse to adjoin themselves to such a Source may receive the temporary succor which comes from the knowledge that one is getting ones own way. However, such relief is sho biters, is proof enough of their desires. God, ever the gentleman, allows them their desires.

Okay—now that I’ve successfully avoided that trap: 😉

I have to dispute that there is any place/dimension/state-of-being which is, or could be, absent God’s presence...

The West (and particularly, I think, sola scriptura Protestantism) has adopted such a juridical model of soterias, that not only seems to violate the root meaning of the word, but the early church teachings as well. And in this juridical model, we are required to make a decision while “seeing through a glass only darkly”—what honest person really has a clear comprehension of the word “eternity”? I don’t. Mostly, people seem to think of it as just a “really long time.”

“Salvation” means healing; and Kirk’s understanding is well-supported in the early church. It is also, quite frankly, the only view that can make sense of God’s being agape—of agape being God’s being...

Think of the parable of the Good Samaritan, Freaky: We are the man in the ditch, so injured as to be even unable to cry for help, even to know we are in need of salvation. God is the Samaritan—a person we, as common Judeans—hate; if roused to consciousness, we would push him away. Maybe we even do. God knows this. So—he leaves us to suffer and die in the ditch?

You know, Freaky, I don’t think this is a “deal-breaker” for the rest of your theology (or most of it anyway), at least as I think I have understood it over the years.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I say that it matters just as much as the rest of your scenario. You say the woman was a religious person who followed the teachings of Jesus. Does that mean your woman simply adhered to a set of rules, or does it mean that she actually did what Christ commanded, i.e., trusted in Him for her salvation instead of herself?

The distinction is relevant be is desired destination. Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?

This was\is a well written post.

Originally posted by knightmeister
God might respond by saying " I have tried everything I know to get your son to turn to me but he will not let me in. His heart has become darkened and I cannot reach him without violating his free will. The key to his destiny is inside the door of his heart where I decided it should be placed. I cannot turn it for him. I am as helpless as you are. His ...[text shortened]... respect this. This is the agony of love. When you weep for your son I weep alongside you. "

That's right - an omniscient, omnipotent creator is capable of a failure like this.

What a load of bull Christianity is.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why?

Well, for one, you god claims to have "tried everything", but apparently this didn't include simply appearing before the poor guy and introducing himself.

Pretty poor effort for an omnipotent being.

It's not a violation of free will to give someone all the information to make an informed choice. Your god is someone who hides behind a rock in the desert with infinite bottles of water, while others stagger around dying of thirst.

Originally posted by kirksey957
I like the Old Testament imagery of the "refiner's fire. Unlike the hell of some of our Revelation scholars, this kind of fire is purposeful in that the refiner carefully watches over the fire to make sure that refinement takes place and is not destruction. What emerges is void of the impurities.

One other thing that may make this unpalatable to many is we all get "refined."

Is there any scriptural basis for this, or are you starting your own religion?

Originally posted by rwingett
Is there any scriptural basis for this, or are you starting your own religion?

Pay no attention to Ivanhoe. Of course there is. Don't you remember that aria from Handel's Messiah "And He Shall Purify"? From Malachi 3:3 "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he sahll purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

Originally posted by kirksey957
Pay no attention to Ivanhoe. Of course there is. Don't you remember that aria from Handel's Messiah "And He Shall Purify"? From Malachi 3:3 "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he sahll purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

This seems to be in invocation on how to refine man's practices on this earth, rather than their souls in the hereafter. In fact, it goes on in Micah 4:1 to say, "For behold, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all the evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."

But then, I'm no biblical scholar...

Originally posted by rwingett

But then, I'm no biblical scholar...

Wow! you spoke truth for once.

Originally posted by RBHILL
Wow! you spoke truth for once.

Would you care to give us your analysis of the passages in question? It's your moment to shine, RBHill. Dazzle us with your penetrating insights. If you can.