1. Standard memberScriabin
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    02 Apr '09 21:19
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    mmmmm, is this one of those cryptic type of messages that Bosse usually post that i usually feel too stupid to reply to?
    also, because I cannot recall, I don't have to watch reruns, mysteries are always interesting, I'm always meeting new people, and I can hide my own passover matzos.
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    02 Apr '09 21:22
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    also, because I cannot recall, I don't have to watch reruns, mysteries are always interesting, I'm always meeting new people, and I can hide my own passover matzos.
    you celebrate the passover, how very interesting! has it been embellished much since the time of Christ?
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    02 Apr '09 21:39
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    celebrate the passover? why?
    with a few modifications? what modifications? why are they significant?
    what does it mean?
    when should it be celebrated?
    how often should it be celebrated?
    what are the important elements in its celebration?
    what is the significance of the bread?
    what is the significance of the wine?
    what is the covenant that C ...[text shortened]... did Christ specifically tell the disciples that they should continue to do this is remembrance?
    He doesn't know that the Lord's Table is not the Passover.

    The Lord's Supper is not a modified version of the Passover.
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    02 Apr '09 21:411 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    He doesn't know that the Lord's Table is not the Passover.

    The Lord's Supper is not a modified version of the Passover.
    I agree, oh Jaywill, some sanity at last! will you celebrate this event my friend?
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    02 Apr '09 21:43
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I agree, oh Jaywill, some sanity at last! will you celebrate this event my friend?
    If I recall rightly, Christ and His disciples had the Passover feast first and then He instituted the Lord's Table with the bread and the wine.

    I would have to double check.
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    02 Apr '09 21:50
    Originally posted by jaywill
    If I recall rightly, Christ and His disciples had the Passover feast first and then He instituted the Lord's Table with the bread and the wine.

    I would have to double check.
    This is correct, check it out!
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    02 Apr '09 22:00
    Wasn't the passover a type of christs death and attonement?
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    02 Apr '09 22:03
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Wasn't the passover a type of christs death and attonement?
    I agree that it was. The NT says that Christ is our Passover (1 Cor. 5:7).
  9. Standard memberScriabin
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    03 Apr '09 04:09
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you celebrate the passover, how very interesting! has it been embellished much since the time of Christ?
    I've no idea. I use a very short, abbreviated service: As the elder, I sort of recline at the head of the table, wave my hand to be served, and with the first cup of wine raised, I recite, in English, the following summary: They tried to kill us, they failed, let's eat!

    Same service works for just about every other holiday I know.
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    03 Apr '09 06:23
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    celebrate the passover? why?
    with a few modifications? what modifications? why are they significant?
    what does it mean?
    when should it be celebrated?
    how often should it be celebrated?
    what are the important elements in its celebration?
    what is the significance of the bread?
    what is the significance of the wine?
    what is the covenant that C ...[text shortened]... did Christ specifically tell the disciples that they should continue to do this is remembrance?
    Now I am confused. You started a whole thread on the subject now you act like you don't know anything? I was merely trying to clarify what you were saying and why. If I got it wrong then correct me as clarification is what I was looking for.
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    03 Apr '09 06:241 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    He doesn't know that the Lord's Table is not the Passover.

    The Lord's Supper is not a modified version of the Passover.
    Then what is it? robbie quotes Christ saying that it was passover.

    Or was it another of those events stolen from pre-Christian culture that Robbie was complaining about? OK this one wasn't pagan (from the Jews point of view).
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    03 Apr '09 07:381 edit
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    I've no idea. I use a very short, abbreviated service: As the elder, I sort of recline at the head of the table, wave my hand to be served, and with the first cup of wine raised, I recite, in English, the following summary: They tried to kill us, they failed, let's eat!

    Same service works for just about every other holiday I know.
    Lol, very funny, its good to see the patriarchal system has not undergone much change even in modern times! although i did hear that the passover was meant to be eaten standing up, to emphasize the readiness for the exodus. perhaps its an inaccuracy, but its interesting never the less. is it not also true that you are meant to eat unleavened bread, again to emphasize the readiness for flight and also 'bitter greens', 'because life had been bitter under slavery!
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    03 Apr '09 07:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Now I am confused. You started a whole thread on the subject now you act like you don't know anything? I was merely trying to clarify what you were saying and why. If I got it wrong then correct me as clarification is what I was looking for.
    oh whitey my friend, these were rhetorical questions designed for you to do research on, in the hope that you may come to a better understanding of the difference between the passover and the 'Lords supper', as it is termed.
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    03 Apr '09 08:301 edit
    for those who may be interested

    PASSOVER

    Passover (Hebrew: pesach; Greek: paskha) was instituted the evening preceding the Exodus from Egypt. The first Passover was observed about the time of full moon, on the 14th day of Abib (later called Nisan) in the year 1513 B.C.E. This was thereafter to be celebrated annually. (Ex 12:17-20, 24-27) Abib (Nisan) falls within the months March-April of the Gregorian calendar. Passover was followed by seven days of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, Nisan 15-21. Passover commemorates the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt and the 'passing over' of their firstborn when God destroyed the firstborn of Egypt. Seasonally, it fell at the beginning of the barley harvest. Ex 12:14, 24-47; Le 23:10.

    Passover was a memorial celebration, therefore the scriptural command was: 'And it must occur that when your sons say to you, 'What does this service mean to you?' then you must say, 'It is the sacrifice of the passover to Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when he plagued the Egyptians, but he delivered our houses.' Ex 12:26, 27.

    Since the Jews reckoned the day as starting after sundown and ending the next day at sundown, Nisan 14 would begin after sundown. It would be in the evening after Nisan 13 concluded that the Passover would be observed. Since the Bible definitely states that Christ is the Passover sacrifice (1Co 5:7) and that he observed the Passover meal the evening before he was put to death, the date of his death would be Nisan 14, not Nisan 15, in order to fulfill accurately the time feature of the type, or shadow, provided in the Law. Heb 10:1.

    Laws Governing Its Observance. Each household was to choose a male sheep or goat that was sound and a year old. It was taken into the house on the 10th day of the month Abib and kept until the 14th, and then it was slaughtered and its blood was splashed with a bunch of hyssop on the doorposts and the upper part of the doorway of the dwelling in which they were to eat it (not on the threshold where the blood would be trampled on).

    The lamb (or goat) was slaughtered, skinned, its interior parts cleansed and replaced, and it was roasted whole, well-done, with no bones broken. (2Ch 35:11; Nu 9:12) If the household was too small to consume the whole animal, then it was to be shared with a neighbor household and eaten that same night. Anything left over was to be burned before morning. (Ex 12:10; 34:25) It was eaten with unfermented cakes, 'the bread of affliction,' and with bitter greens, for their life had been bitter under slavery. Ex 1:14; 12:1-11, 29, 34; De 16:3.

    What is meant by the expression “between the two evenings”?

    The Israelites measured their day from sundown to sundown. So Passover day would begin at sundown at the end of the 13th day of Abib (Nisan). The animal was to be slaughtered 'between the two evenings.' (Ex 12:6) There are differences of opinion as to the exact time meant. According to some scholars, as well as the Karaite Jews and Samaritans, this is the time between sunset and deep twilight. On the other hand, the Pharisees and the Rabbinists considered the first evening to be when the sun began to descend and the second evening to be the real sunset. Due to this latter view the rabbis hold that the lamb was slaughtered in the latter part of the 14th, not at its start, and therefore that the Passover meal was actually eaten on Nisan 15.

    On this point Professors Keil and Delitzsch say: 'Different opinions have prevailed among the Jews from a very early date as to the precise time intended. Aben Ezra agrees with the Caraites and Samaritans in taking the first evening to be the time when the sun sinks below the horizon, and the second the time of total darkness; in which case, ‘between the two evenings’ would be from 6 o'clock to 7.20. . . . According to the rabbinical idea, the time when the sun began to descend, viz. from 3 to 5 o'clock, was the first evening, and sunset the second; so that 'between the two evenings' was from 3 to 6 o'clock. Modern expositors have very properly decided in favour of the view held by Aben Ezra and the custom adopted by the Caraites and Samaritans.' Commentary on the Old Testament, 1973, Vol. I, The Second Book of Moses, p. 12

    From the foregoing, and particularly in view of such texts as Exodus 12:17, 18, Leviticus 23:5-7, and Deuteronomy 16:6, 7, the weight of evidence points to the application of the expression 'between the two evenings' to the time between sunset and dark. This would mean that the Passover meal was eaten well after sundown on Nisan 14, for it took considerable time to slaughter, skin, and roast the animal thoroughly. Deuteronomy 16:6 commands: 'You should sacrifice the passover in the evening as soon as the sun sets.' Jesus and his apostles observed the Passover meal 'after evening had fallen.' (Mr 14:17; Mt 26:20) Judas went out immediately after the Passover observance, 'And it was night.' (Joh 13:30) When Jesus observed the Passover with his 12 apostles, there must have been no little conversation, then, too, some time would have been occupied by Jesus in washing the apostles feet. (Joh 13:2-5) Hence, the institution of the Lords Evening Meal certainly took place quite late in the evening.

    At the Passover in Egypt, the head of the family was responsible for the slaying of the lamb (or goat) at each home, and all were to stay inside the house to avoid being slain by the angel. The partakers ate in a standing position, their hips girded, staff in hand, sandals on so as to be ready for a long journey over rough ground (whereas they often did their daily work barefoot). At midnight all the firstborn of the Egyptians were slain, but the angel passed over the houses on which the blood had been spattered. (Ex 12:11, 23) Every Egyptian household in which there was a firstborn male was affected, from the house of Pharaoh himself to the firstborn of the prisoner. It was not the head of the house, even though he may have been a firstborn, but was any male firstborn in the household under the head, as well as the male firstborn of animals, that was slain.—Ex 12:29, 30

    The Ten Plagues upon Egypt all proved to be a judgment against the gods of Egypt, especially the tenth, the death of the firstborn. (Ex 12:12) For the ram (male sheep) was sacred to the god Ra, so that splashing the blood of the Passover lamb on the doorways would be blasphemy in the eyes of the Egyptians. Also, the bull was sacred, and the destruction of the firstborn of the bulls would be a blow to the god Osiris. Pharaoh himself was venerated as a son of Ra. The death of Pharaohs own firstborn would thus show the impotence of both Ra and Pharaoh.

    In the Wilderness and the Promised Land. Only one Passover celebration in the wilderness is mentioned. (Nu 9:1-14) The keeping of the Passover during the wilderness journey likely was limited, for two reasons: (1) Gods original instructions were that it must be kept when they reached the Promised Land. (Ex 12:25; 13:5) (2) Those born in the wilderness had not been circumcised (Jos 5:5), whereas all male partakers of Passover had to be circumcised. Ex 12:45-49.

    Record of Passovers Observed. The Hebrew Scriptures give direct accounts of the Passover
    (1) in Egypt (Ex 12)
    (2) in the wilderness at Sinai, Nisan 14, 1512 B.C.E. (Nu 9)
    (3) when they reached the Promised Land, at Gilgal and after the circumcision of the males, 1473 B.C.E. (Jos 5)
    (4) at the time that Hezekiah restored true worship (2Ch 30)
    (5) the Passover of Josiah (2Ch 35)
    (6) the celebration by Israel after the return from Babylonian exile (Ezr 6). (Also, mention is made of Passovers held in Samuels day and during the days of the kings, at 2Ch 35:18) After the Israelites were settled in the land, the Passover festival was observed 'in the place that Jehovah will choose to have his name reside,' instead of in each home or in the various cities. In time, the chosen place came to be Jerusalem. De 16:1-8.

    Accretions. After Israel had settled in the Promised Land, certain changes were made and various accretions came about in observing the Passover. They no longer partook of the feast in a standing position, or equipped for a journey, for they were then in the land that God had given them. The first century celebrants customarily ate it while lying on their left side, with the head resting on the left hand. This explains how one of Jesus disciples could be 'reclining in front of Jesus' bosom.' (Joh 13:23) Wine was not used at the Passover in Egypt nor was there any command given by God for its use with the festival. This practice was introduced later on. Jesus did not condemn the use of wine with the meal, but he drank wine with his apostles and afterward offered a cup for them to drink as he introduced the Lords Evening Meal,
    Lu 22:15-18, 20.

    According to traditional Jewish sources, red wine was used and four cups were handed around, although the service was not restricted to four cups. Psalms 113 to 118 were sung during the meal, concluding with Psalm 118. It is likely that it was one of these psalms that Jesus and his apostles sang in concluding the Lords Evening Meal. Mt 26:30.
  15. Cape Town
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    03 Apr '09 08:31
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    oh whitey my friend, these were rhetorical questions designed for you to do research on, in the hope that you may come to a better understanding of the difference between the passover and the 'Lords supper', as it is termed.
    Well if you are not even ready to give a basic summary but rather you and jaywill prefer the ridiculous tactic of saying to each other "Oh my, he doesn't know!" then, sorry, I wont be bothered to do my own research. Remember it is your religion not mine.
    One other comment, as you appear not to mentioned it yet, in the Anglican Church (and I believe the Roman Catholic Church and others) the Last Supper is celebrated every Sunday not only once a year at Easter (and the days leading up to Easter). It must also be noted that they use unleavened bread in the ceremony as per passover tradition.
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