'I am married to Jesus' (article)

Originally posted by sonship
It is Jesus Christ Who does the saving. It is Jesus Himself Who is the salvation. That is either eternally or on a moment to moment bases from many things from which we need saving.

If someone does not think these things about Jesus, will they suffer "damnation"?

Originally posted by FMF
Do Christians have to [b]think that this is true if they are to be "saved"?[/b]

Being regenerated is like being BORN.
In one sense I did nothing to be physically born.

It is a matter of receiving another life in addition to the life you were naturally born with in the experience of being born again.

I have heard many experiences of many people. One of my favorites is from a lawyer who was going through a painful divorce. He never read the Bible and never believed in Jesus.

He told me that during this time he was in a motel. He said his heart was aching and his life was unraveling. He was depressed.

In the room on a table was a Bible. He sat across from is in a chair. He didn't read it. He had never cared about God. He had never thought to read about Jesus Christ. He told me that he just sat there and LOOKED at that Bible. He wondered. He probably wondered if God could help him. He probably wondered if in his pain God was real and could save him.

This man is still a lawyer as far as I know. Today he is a strong Christian. How and when it happened, I don't know. But he was reborn. Sometime during that ordeal he must have DONE the thing of opening his heart to Jesus Christ.

It is mysterious. Jesus said it was mysterious -

" Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew. The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7,8)

Somethings which are rather mysterious and hard to explain are also real too.

I do not feel obligated to systematize the Word of God 100%. I don't think the Bible can be systematized 100%. Some things which cannot be systematized 100% can be real and true nonetheless.

Originally posted by sonship
It is a matter of receiving another life in addition to the life you were naturally born with in the experience of being [b]born again.[/b]

This "receiving" and "experience" happens in one's mind, in one's thoughts, yes?

Originally posted by sonship
You introduce this time the word "physically". What this additional word is suppose to do for you, I don't know.

Would you agree that things like believing something, having faith in something, hoping something, telling oneself something, interpreting something in a certain way, assuming something, or perceiving something as being true, are all things which occur in the mind and which require no other action or physical activity or actual physical transformation?

Originally posted by FMF
If someone does not think these things about Jesus, will they suffer "damnation"?

What are "these things" ?

It is not hard to be eternally redeemed. Let us say a person knowns nearly no theology. He is not conversant on the Trinity, cannot debate predestination or free will or any deep theology.

Yet he believes into Christ at some point in his life. God is faithful.

Now the question is is not what should the NORMAL Christian experience be. The question is not what is desireable in a normal Christian life. The question I examine is about the faithfulness of God.

The apostolic teaching says -

" That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.

For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame.' "

(Rom. 10:9-11)

Now I expect Rajk999 to come bounding into the discussion objecting about OSAS.

My point here is that during the course of a person's life he may have been joined to Christ the Savior. And if he is he is eternally redeemed. As to eternal life he is saved.

The point here is not what OUGHT to be. The point here is not what is the desirable norm in Christian experience. The point is God's faithfulness to His Word.

"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (v.13)

Now what are you going to do? Are you going to hunt for a hypothetical? Are you going to explore some inconsistency? Are you going to split hairs to "prove" the good news of Jesus Christ is not logical ?

If one hears that LA is going to be shaken by an earthquake and he boards a plane for New York beforehand, the plane will save him from that disaster.

If he boards the plane but does not know about the earthquake and departs, the same plane will save him in spite of his ignorance.

It is the plane which is his saving.
And it is Jesus Christ Himself - resurrected, alive and available who is salvation from condemnation.

If the passenger thinks there is a disaster coming the plane saves him from it. If the passenger is not thinking about the disaster coming, he is still saved by the plane.

I preach the Gospel of Jumbo Jesus. Get on the plane.
Having said that I would add - Just getting out of LA is not the only purpose there. God has an eternal purpose in becoming one with us.

Originally posted by sonship
What are "these things" ?

The things you mentioned in the part of your post I was responding to.

Originally posted by FMF
This "receiving" and "experience" happens in one's mind, in one's thoughts, yes?

No. It went over your head.

" He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit " ( 1 Cor. 6:17)

Here you have something deeper than the human mind. You have here the human spirit.

Here you have a being joined to the Holy Spirit with your human spirit. The TWO spirits become one united "JOINED" spirit.

God becomes part of you. You become joined to God the Spirit in your innermost being to be one, mingled spirit.

Of course the mind plays a part. But the receiving of this divine life is in the kernel, the innermost part of our being.

This further questioning is not a matter now of your not understanding, I think. This is a matter of you standing upon your disbelief.

You have more questions for me. The questions are not really a matter or trying to understand. I suspect they are tailored to exploit what you consider to be logical weaknesses.

So I will not let you grill me all day long and all night long.
If you have a better way to live besides trusting the Son of God, you go ahead and live that.

I am trusting the Son of God. I am enjoying the Son of God. I am enjoying His availability though I admit 100 percent systematization of the Bible I don't think I can perform.

Thanks for a few interesting questions.

Originally posted by sonship
Here you have something deeper than the human mind. You have here the human spirit.

Here you have a being joined to the Holy Spirit with your human spirit. The TWO spirits become one united [b]"JOINED" spirit.

God becomes part of you. You become joined to God the Spirit in your innermost being to be one, mingled spirit. [/b]

If one does not think these same things as you think about the 'mingling' of one's spirit and "God", can one be "saved" nevertheless, or - without thinking that this 'mingling' actually occurs along with the "one united JOINED spirit" thing - does one face "damnation", according to your religious beliefs?

Originally posted by sonship
I am trusting the Son of God. I am enjoying the Son of God. I am enjoying His availability though I admit 100 percent systematization of the Bible I don't think I can perform..

Isn't this "trusting" and "enjoying" and "admitting" and resisting "systematization of the Bible" etc. just stuff that's happening in your mind?

Originally posted by sonship
You have more questions for me. The questions are not really a matter or trying to understand. I suspect they are tailored to exploit what you consider to be logical weaknesses.

You have aired your 'torturer God' ideology in public and it is being scrutinized, that's all. It is what this debate and discussion is for, after all.

Originally posted by FMF
If one does not think these same things as you think about the 'mingling' of one's spirit and "God", can one be "saved" nevertheless, or - without thinking that this 'mingling' actually occurs along with the "one united JOINED spirit" thing - does one face "damnation", according to your religious beliefs?

One does not have to agree on every manner of utterance sonship uses to be a brother in Christ.

You can disagree with me and still be in Jesus as I am in Jesus.

The main thing is that we be in Christ. Some are more conversant on that matter and speak in certain ways. Others may speak with other kinds of expressions.

When I meet a brother in Christ, often we can tell about each other that Christ has received us. She discerns that Christ has received me. I can discern often that Christ has received him or her.

Always ? No.

Originally posted by sonship
You can disagree with me and still be in Jesus as I am in Jesus.

At what point in not thinking the same things as you do about supernatural things does one become, in your view, an agent of "Satan"?

For example, if one thinks none of the things you think about Jesus, that makes them 'followers of Satan', is that right?

Originally posted by sonship
Everyone who is saved eventually will together be the corporate Bride of Christ. See Revelation 21 and 22.

Do people have to think that they are going to be part of "the corporate Bride of Christ" in order to avoid "damnation"?

Originally posted by sonship
Here you have something deeper than the human mind. You have here the human spirit. [.text shortened.] Of course the mind plays a part.

Can this alteration or supposed "regeneration" of the human spirit occur even if the human mind is non-functioning or gone/lost?

Originally posted by FMF
You have aired your 'torturer God' ideology in public and it is being scrutinized, that's all. It is what this debate and discussion is for, after all.

Okay, I'll say a little about eternal punishment. Just a little.

This is my personal position on this dreadful matter.

Eternal punishment only makes sense if God is perfect.
Eternal punishment does not make sense if God is less just than His creatures. It makes no sense of God if faulty or capable of wrong doing.

Eternal punishment perhaps makes no sense if there is a higher God, say God 2.0 to which we can appeal who will correct God 1.0.

And probably eternal punishment makes no sense is it was not God Himself Who in Christ died for me.

If there is a higher umpire, a higher Governor or Court of appeal then perhaps the faulty imperfect God can stand some correction concerning punishing the rebel forever.

But then what if we don't agree with that higher court?
But then what if we appeal to an even higher court with a grievance?

Is there an infinite regress of ever higher Authroity? Is there an infinite regress of ever higher Love.

Where I am at right now with this difficult issue, is that eternal punishment only makes sense if God is the last place of Righteousness, Goodness, Love and Justice.

You objected very strongly to me speaking of eternal punishment as something like "perfect justice". Am I not sure what expression I used. But you objected.

I don't back down on that. It makes sense that the irreconcilable rebel must lose in the ultimate end. But where I am at these days is that this eternal punishment only makes sense as perfect justice if God is indeed the goodness above which a greater is impossible.

Now for a thought experiment let us assume that there are, let's say 18 thousand levels of higher authority and goodness besides the God of the Bible. If don't like any subordinate God we just bump up a level to the next higher level Authority to get a correction of an unjust decision.

Now what happens when we reach the last level - 18 thousandth Supreme Being ? And suppose we STILL have a serious revolt against that last level. Should we expect the LAST Supreme One, number 18,000 to say -

"Just forget about it. You can reject Me just like you rejected the 17,999 lower courts. I don't care."

To be punished eternally, as dreadful as it sounds, makes sense to me if there is no greater Rightness besides God.

It is His responsibility that when all mercy, forbearance, patience, and longsuffering has been rejected, the rejector is exampled as not being able to win against the Most High.

From what I have seen this is less of a concept to those who do not believe that that Man who died upon the cross was God Himself. I think what we need to see is that in Jesus Christ God Himself went so far that we would be reconciled to God.