Originally posted by robbie carrobieColossians 1:16,17
perhaps you would like to comment upon the fact that the texts states that Jesus is part of creation after all we are interested in what the Bible actually says, not what it does not.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
So then, Jesus not only created everything, but He also created Himself?
According to the Watchtower, right?
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Originally posted by josephwThe text states that Jesus is of creation, the firstborn of all creation infact, clearly he was created first and through him all other things were created, why this should be hard to understand i cannot say, why you need to mention the watchtower is again a reflection of the weakness of your arguments and an inability to engage in rational thought, the Bible does not mention the watchtower.
Colossians 1:16,17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
So then, Jesus not only created everything, but He also created Himself?
According to the Watchtower, right?
The Bible also terms Jesus as the only begotten son of God, which again indicates that he was the only creation directly created by God, all other things being created through him. why this should be hard to understand i cannot say, if he was not the only begotten then why is he termed the only begotten son of God, for god has many sons.
will you tell us now how its possible to be the firstborn of all creation and not be created or a part of creation?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieBecause in these verses, 1:15 and 1:18 of Colossians, firstborn does not mean eldest of those born. It indicates RANK.
The text states that Jesus is of creation, the firstborn of all creation infact, clearly he was created first and through him all other things were created, why this should be hard to understand i cannot say, why you need to mention the watchtower is again a reflection of the weakness of your arguments and an inability to engage in rational thought, ...[text shortened]... w how its possible to be the firstborn of all creation and not be created or a part of creation?
If He was indeed the firstborn, according to your definition, then there was no creation before Him? If He was, as you say, the FIRST BORN "of all creation", then why was He not born until the New Testament? Surely, everyone in the Old Testament was born before him, q.e.d.
(I also here must remind you that Paul uses the Greek word for "firstborn", not "first born", or "first created". The Greek word was commonly used in his time to refer to rank, as an heir would be, regardless of birth order, and the text context bears this out.)
By the way, the correct translation is "firstborn of every creature", I do not know why you continue to misappropriate the text.
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Originally posted by Suziannewhether it indicates rank or anything else the firstborn is still part of the creation as the Greek indicates and that is why you cannot get away with trying to interpret the verse and imposing your dogma onto scripture where none exists in the text, get over it, the verse states that the first-born is part of the creation, a created entity and no amount of the imposition of dogma and religious bias can change the fact.
Because in these verses, 1:15 and 1:18 of Colossians, firstborn does not mean eldest of those born. It indicates RANK.
If He was indeed the firstborn, according to your definition, then there was no creation before Him? If He was, as you say, the FIRST BORN "of all creation", then why was He not born until the New Testament? Surely, everyone in the Ol ...[text shortened]... ion is "firstborn of every creature", I do not know why you continue to misappropriate the text.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDo you even understand English? I bet your marks weren't very high.
whether it indicates rank or anything else the firstborn is still part of the creation as the Greek indicates and that is why you cannot get away with trying to interpret the verse and imposing your dogma onto scripture where none exists in the text, get over it, the verse states that the first-born is part of the creation, a created entity and no amount of the imposition of dogma and religious bias can change the fact.
When speaking of rank, one can be "first" without actually being the first to get there. It is RANK, NOT BIRTH ORDER. How many times do I have to say it? You are about the thickest of the thick I have ever tried to talk to.
He was NOT "part of creation", He was ABOVE all creation. The Greek indicates RANK, a common colloquialism of the times. It is also what is meant in Col. 1:18. Paul meant first in rank, AND he avoided using the Greek word for "first created" which is what you're telling us he meant! This is what the text says, if you would care to crawl out from under the weight of your own corporation-induced dogma. I say again, your bias is obvious. This is what is despicable about your corporation. You take a very emotional and beautiful passage praising Christ, and twist it and pervert it just so you can claim your man-made dogma is correct.
And don't you DARE to tell me that I do what JWs do, namely imposing dogma onto scripture. Those of my belief did not write our own Bible to make our dogma seem real. Our dogma came from the Word of God.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHe mentions the WTO only because you people are the ONLY ones to twist and pervert the scripture in this way.
The text states that Jesus is of creation, the firstborn of all creation infact, clearly he was created first and through him all other things were created, why this should be hard to understand i cannot say, why you need to mention the watchtower is again a reflection of the weakness of your arguments and an inability to engage in rational thought, ...[text shortened]... w how its possible to be the firstborn of all creation and not be created or a part of creation?
Say God... hi, Great King Rat here. Do you see what you have done? You've written the guidebook that supposedly teaches us how to live good lives, yet even among those that believe you exist, there's massive disagreement about some of the fundamentals of your being. What does that tell you, God? That maybe your text wasn't quite as clear as you thought it was? That maybe your idea of writing it in one language and then having it translated by multiple people in various languages wasn't quite as wise? That maybe you need to confess to not having made the perfect decisions and that maybe you need to rethink your strategy?
Nah, I'm sure one of these believers has got it right.
It must be, right?
Originally posted by Great King Ratyou cannot blame God because some of his believers are incapable of rational thought!
Say God... hi, Great King Rat here. Do you see what you have done? You've written the guidebook that supposedly teaches us how to live good lives, yet even among those that believe you exist, there's massive disagreement about some of the fundamentals of your being. What does that tell you, God? That maybe your text wasn't quite as clear as you though ...[text shortened]... k your strategy?
Nah, I'm sure one of these believers has got it right.
It must be, right?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI have been following the other thread (but keeping my
'He is the firstborn of all creation' Colossians 1:15
Now if you were to read this verse objectively, which is the reason i am appealing to our atheist friends, for it appears to me that nominal Christians seem almost incapable of rational thought so blinded by religious bias, would you concur that the firstborn is or is not a part of creation?
atheist views to myself). And yes I agree with you Robbie.
But you cant have your cake and eat it! What about other
verses (lately on the place of women in the church) which
you say cannot be taken out of context?
I'm afraid as has been said many, many times; the bible
is full of contradiction. You take out of it the bits you want.
Good Luck!
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieHere is the last verse in that paragraph that may explain what is meant:
you are incapable of rational thought and like suzzianne are becoming hysterical.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all things, both alive and dead, as explained in this verse?
Also how could it mean He was created, if it says He created ALL things?
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:16-17 KJV)
The following is the complete paragraph according to the NKJV:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV)
Originally posted by RJHinds
Here is the last verse in that paragraph that may explain what is meant:
[b]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all t ...[text shortened]... from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/b]
(Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV)[/b]
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all things, both alive and dead, as explained in this verse?Yes, Ron, that is exactly what I've been saying. People in Paul's time used the word "firstborn" to mean both (and either) rank, or birth order. Congratulations, for you clearly see what robbie is refusing to see, due to his iron-fisted grip on his corporation's man-made dogma. They NEED to ignore all alternate meanings of the word in order to present their dogma as correct, because it doesn't meet that test used as Paul used the word. There is another Greek word, protoktisis, which means "first created", and Paul did not use this word because that is NOT what he meant to say.
In this case, all the supporting text (Col. 1:16-18) explains clearly what is meant in Col. 1:15.
Originally posted by SuzianneAnd one for you sue & u robbie a unicorn was a baby rhinocerosCan't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all things, both alive and dead, as explained in this verse?Yes, Ron, that is exactly what I've been saying. People in Paul's time used the word "firstborn" to mean both (and either) rank, or birth order. Congratulations, for you clearly see w ...[text shortened]... n this case, all the supporting text (Col. 1:16-18) explains clearly what is meant in Col. 1:15.