I can't believe

Originally posted by sonhouse
Dasa would have a much different take on that one, no founder, etc.

Also, the statement that belief comes after infusion of the holy spirit can't be right.

The 'holy spirit' if true, would be impossible for humans to reject since you define your god as being omniscient, an omniscient god would permeate the very fabric of every atom, particle, sub-par ...[text shortened]... am not reverting to ad hominem attacks which are pointless and detracts from discussion.

Your post is not entirely clear to me. Where did I say belief comes after infusion of the holy spirit ?
Our spiritual thought says that each and every being is already infused with the " holy spirit ". The very Universe as manifest and as non-manifest is permeated by God. To that extent everything is God.
The problem is that we the humans and other beings are deluded by Maya or " Nescience " or the delusional appearance of this manifest universe as static and unchanging and to that extent real. The Reality is that the manifest universe is dynamic, changing and to that extent unreal.The aim of our life is to be that the inner Self must be realized. The inner Self of every being, believer/non believer/human/non-human is a reflection of the Universal Self/Ultimate Reality/God. We are little sparks of a big fire.Once a person realizes this, he/she is liberated from the coils of the Sansar- Chakra or the Wheel of the World of Change. If, however, he/she does not realize this but takes himself/herself as an assembly of body/mind/ego etc. then he/she remains bound up.
God is beyond human speech and mind. Our Vedas and Upanishads concede this point very very clearly. This being so, it is futile to describe God as omniscient and omnipotent or as none of that or any where in between or whatever or all of these contradictions. God is to be experienced ( rather than to be known ) by realizing one's inner Self.
As I have submitted for the information of all of us that the easiest way recommended is that of Bhakti or devotion. Next path,slightly more difficult is to do one's duty and to act as if for God and gift the fruits of actions to God,no attachment is to be had with the fruits of actions. This the Karma Yog. Next path, even more difficult is to do Raj Yoga or calming and concentrating the mind and then meditating as per recommendations of a Guru. Next is even more difficult path, that of Dnyan Yog. This requires comparative study of all existing knowledge and try to resolve the issue in such a way that one gets to KNOW God. Or a judicious mix of the four paths.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Can I jump in on this one?

You mention specifically hindus and muslims.

Well, I can totally buy into Islam, given the muslim history and the fact that they worship the God of Abraham. They've just taken it into a different direction, and for that, I'd call them "misguided" since they don't accept Christ as the Son of God or the Messiah.

Hinduism i pretty much expect me to say that, given that I'm Christian and believe what I believe.

Get your facts right.

The false prophet of Islam was meat eater, womaniser, paedophile, war lord and murderer............therefore Islam is the most false religion in existence.

The Vedas accepts Jesus - but do not accept the false teachings of the Bible.

The many Gods you mention are the demigods.

Apart from the demi-gods - there is the ONE true Personality of Godhead - the Supreme Lord.

If you do not know what demigods are - then do not mention them in ignorance.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Your post is not entirely clear to me. Where did I say belief comes after infusion of the holy spirit ?
Our spiritual thought says that each and every being is already infused with the " holy spirit ". The very Universe as manifest and as non-manifest is permeated by God. To that extent everything is God.
The problem is that we the humans and other bein ...[text shortened]... e the issue in such a way that one gets to KNOW God. Or a judicious mix of the four paths.

Sorry if you thought that was aimed at you, it was aimed at christians, one of the posts mentioned the precursor to belief. Like I said, an infinite god would infuse the entire universe and it would not matter whether you believed or not, nobody would be left out of this god's 'grace', or whatever christians attribute their god with. It would be like I said, humans having the power to reject neutrinos coming from the sun or to deny gravity.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Also, the statement that belief comes after infusion of the holy spirit can't be right.

The 'holy spirit' if true, would be impossible for humans to reject
Your 2nd claim doesn't even negate the notion that belief comes after grace (or, infusion of the Holy Spirit as you put it)

since you define your god as being omniscient, an omniscient god would permeate the very fabric of every atom, particle, sub-particle and all the forces of the universe.
Who claimed that? And even still, what does it have to do with faith coming after God's grace? And by the way I think you're talking about omnipresence, not omniscience.

It would be like us standing on Earth and saying only certain people can have gravity.

Or only certain people can accept neutrino's that stream out of the sun.

Do you get my meaning here?
Um. No.

Of course I expect the usual 'god gave us free will' argument but that would mean some people have been given a bye on the power of your lord. Your god lets them reject neutrino's coming from the sun. Seems so unlikely to me as to cause me to reject the whole concept
So now we're on to free will. You seem to be touching on an important theme--one which is still a subject of lively debate within the Christian Church. If I filter out all the gobbledygook I see your post is concerned with God giving his grace to people, and whether or not we have the free will to reject it.

The bible speaks on this subject. We are all born in sin and born enemies of God. If we have the will to reject the grace of God, then, it stands to reason that Jesus could have died for nothing because we would all reject His grace.

God's grace cannot be rejected. It's not a matter of whether or not we "accept Christ." It's whether or not Christ accepts us. The former is a rather arrogant concept, if you ask me.

Please note I am not reverting to ad hominem attacks which are pointless and detracts from discussion.
Noted. And thank you. These discussions are so much more fruitful and enjoyable without all the emotion and ad hominem.