1. Wat?
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    15 Oct '11 23:30
    so many theists take the words of their holy books so literally.

    Do they have nothing else to cling on to, when clining itself is unnecessary fear?

    I agree the ethos of most of those books is true, in that they represent a few basic rules. All religions boil doen to the same few rules. Atheists live by the same rules too!!!!

    Why the belief in these huge amalgamated stories, man-created, to get to the rules?

    Why quote totally illogical parts of a book, because they believe every word?

    We all know don't kill, don't steal in any part of the world, creed, folklore whatever.

    Is it considered that atheists are incapable of adhering to simple important rules, same as theists?

    Or is it that God's rules, what ever that is, are super powerful and give theists supreme rights above non-theists?

    Anybody care to answer my questions, without being lipid?

    -m.
  2. Standard membersumydid
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    15 Oct '11 23:361 edit
    I'll try to answer without being being an oil, fat, or triglyceride.

    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes first. The faith comes as a result of a conversion and rebirth. After that occurs, the bible rings true to the believer and there is no choice in the matter.

    Unbelievers, Atheists, skeptics, cynics, whatever you want to call yourselves. This point is repeated over and over again, and yet you gloss over it, forget it, and then come back with questions that wouldn't make any sense if you had only listened.

    Words like conversion, faith, rebirth. These are not simple metaphors or words used flippently or casually. They are real-life occurences which those who have not experienced it couldn't possibly understand.

    It is literally a "you had to be there" kind of thing.

    If I want to know how to get somewhere and remember it, I have to take the while and drive. As an observer from another car seat, I don't get the same experience and I don't learn how we got there.
  3. Wat?
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    15 Oct '11 23:46
    Originally posted by sumydid
    I'll try to answer without being being an oil, fat, or triglyceride.

    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes [b]first
    . The faith comes as a result of a conversion and rebirth. After that occurs, the bible rings true to the believer and there is no choice in the matter.

    Unbelievers, Atheists, skeptics, cynics, whatever you want to call your ...[text shortened]... rom another car seat, I don't get the same experience and I don't learn how we got there.[/b]
    OK. So I am and never was indwelled. Who didn't I listen to, cos I have a pretty good memory and don't remember not listening to anybody.
  4. Standard membersumydid
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    15 Oct '11 23:47
    You didn't listen to every Christian who ever told you what I just said, and I'm betting I'm not the first to deliver this message to you.
  5. Standard membersumydid
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    15 Oct '11 23:521 edit
    There are 2 old phrases I would like you to familiarize yourself with.

    "Credo ut intelligam" - St. Augustine

    "Regeneration Precedes Faith" - Dr. RC Sproul
  6. Standard membersumydid
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    15 Oct '11 23:534 edits
    x KISS x
  7. Wat?
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    15 Oct '11 23:55
    Originally posted by sumydid
    You didn't listen to every Christian who ever told you what I just said, and I'm betting I'm not the first to deliver this message to you.
    You're not convincing me in any way. We get messages delivered to us from birth onwards, and if we believed all of them then we ALL would be mixed up, without our deciphering of experience, and realising what is true.

    So how is one reborn when one knows from experience already?

    I don't gamble by the way. It doesn't pay.

    -m.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    15 Oct '11 23:57
    Originally posted by sumydid
    x
    Did you just blow him a kiss?
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    15 Oct '11 23:57
    Originally posted by mikelom
    so many theists take the words of their holy books so literally.

    Do they have nothing else to cling on to, when clining itself is unnecessary fear?

    I agree the ethos of most of those books is true, in that they represent a few basic rules. All religions boil doen to the same few rules. Atheists live by the same rules too!!!!

    Why the belief in these ...[text shortened]... rights above non-theists?

    Anybody care to answer my questions, without being lipid?

    -m.
    Who are you calling a fathead?
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    15 Oct '11 23:591 edit
    Originally posted by sumydid
    I'll try to answer without being being an oil, fat, or triglyceride.

    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes [b]first
    . The faith comes as a result of a conversion and rebirth. After that occurs, the bible rings true to the believer and there is no choice in the matter.

    Unbelievers, Atheists, skeptics, cynics, whatever you want to call your rom another car seat, I don't get the same experience and I don't learn how we got there.[/b]
    I started a similar thread wich alluded to some of the points here (old religous book).
    I reckon we always need common sense and books should just back up this common sense. Religous books shouldn't lead us to "truth" but just verify it.

    edit: this is a response to the op, not sumydid's comment
  11. Standard membersumydid
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    16 Oct '11 00:00
    Originally posted by mikelom
    You're not convincing me in any way. We get messages delivered to us from birth onwards, and if we believed all of them then we ALL would be mixed up, without our deciphering of experience, and realising what is true.

    So how is one reborn when one knows from experience already?

    I don't gamble by the way. It doesn't pay.

    -m.
    No one knows from experience except those who are reborn.
  12. Standard membersumydid
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    16 Oct '11 00:011 edit
    There is a very, very common belief I have noticed among unbelievers. And that is, the typical Christian is someone who was indoctrinated as a child, and just grew up believing the bible; apparently was never intelligent or concerned enough to see how impossible and absurd the bible is; and has just gone on believing, blindly, never questioning.

    This kind of conclusion about Christians goes far in explaining why the skeptical "thinkers" treat Christians as though they are of little or below average intelligence.

    Well, the fact is there is no such thing, not a single example of a real Christian, who fits that description. Conversion (and a conversion is a necessary step, no one is "born a Christian" ) is the work of God and the Holy Spirit, NOT the work of blind faith and some human "decision" to just... believe. The latter is nonsense and any self-proclaimed Christian who just grew up believing and never went through the rebith process needs to take a good hard look at themselves and meditate deeply on this subject.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    16 Oct '11 00:05
    Originally posted by sumydid
    I'll try to answer without being being an oil, fat, or triglyceride.

    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes [b]first
    . The faith comes as a result of a conversion and rebirth. After that occurs, the bible rings true to the believer and there is no choice in the matter.

    Unbelievers, Atheists, skeptics, cynics, whatever you want to call your ...[text shortened]... rom another car seat, I don't get the same experience and I don't learn how we got there.[/b]
    "Unbelievers,Athiests,skeptics,cynics, whatever ...". What about other theists who aren't of the same denomination or the same religon?(ie. hindus,muslims)

    Are you like G-75 where he casts them of as "pagan" , and thus unworthy,(or their beliefs are unworthy, something like that anyway), or do you see their paths as being POTENTIALLY as valid as yours? (via thier different belief systems)
  14. Standard membersumydid
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    16 Oct '11 00:13
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    "Unbelievers,Athiests,skeptics,cynics, whatever ...". What about other theists who aren't of the same denomination or the same religon?(ie. hindus,muslims)

    Are you like G-75 where he casts them of as "pagan" , and thus unworthy,(or their beliefs are unworthy, something like that anyway), or do you see their paths as being POTENTIALLY as valid as yours? (via thier different belief systems)
    Yes I guess I'm somewhat like "G-75" whoever that is. I consider those of other religions to be Pagans (afterall that is the definition of Pagan, to Christians) and misguided.

    However I don't dislike the individual Pagans personally. And I do not consider them "unworthy."

    We are all worthy of a God-given purpose, no matter who we are or what we believe.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    16 Oct '11 00:44
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    "Unbelievers,Athiests,skeptics,cynics, whatever ...". What about other theists who aren't of the same denomination or the same religon?(ie. hindus,muslims)

    Are you like G-75 where he casts them of as "pagan" , and thus unworthy,(or their beliefs are unworthy, something like that anyway), or do you see their paths as being POTENTIALLY as valid as yours? (via thier different belief systems)
    Can I jump in on this one?

    You mention specifically hindus and muslims.

    Well, I can totally buy into Islam, given the muslim history and the fact that they worship the God of Abraham. They've just taken it into a different direction, and for that, I'd call them "misguided" since they don't accept Christ as the Son of God or the Messiah.

    Hinduism is another story, though, because of their panoply of gods. This and the idea of reincarnation and the idea that man can work his way back to God make it something rather difficult to believe for me. And the way Dasa goes on about the Vedas. I've read some of it, and it just seems convoluted and unnecessarily intricate and verbose, I find it very hard for me to understand any of it.

    I'd have to stop here though, and say that any religion that believes in God does have the POTENTIAL to be valid. Just not very likely from where I'm standing. But you could pretty much expect me to say that, given that I'm Christian and believe what I believe.
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