1. This is embarrasking
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    13 Sep '07 04:35
    If Christians believe in Prayer and salvation. And they also believe in the Satanic forces. Why don't Christians Pray for the Salvation of Satan. Aren't all things possible through Christ?
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    13 Sep '07 05:213 edits
    Originally posted by cashthetrash
    If Christians believe in Prayer and salvation. And they also believe in the Satanic forces. Why don't Christians Pray for the Salvation of Satan. Aren't all things possible through Christ?
    You seem to be talking about the aspirations of some Universalists who do believe that even Satan will be reconciled to God. I am not a Universalist and don't believe some of thier theology is biblical.

    Your concept of all things being possible through Christ needs some adjustment and balance. Here is what we read:

    "I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing ... If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you." (See John 15:5,7)

    The asking of the disciples which Christ honors is the asking that comes out of abiding in Him and having His words abide in them. In other words they are united with His will and His words. They remain in the realm of Christ and draw from Him His life essence and nature just as branches draw their life from the vine to which they remain attached.

    The answer to the disciple's prayer is conditional upon their living and abiding in Christ, sensing His will, asking according to His word.

    This is different from ripping our asking and His answering out of all context and presumming that we can ask God to go against His will.

    Furthermore, it is "impossible" for God to lie - "In order that by two unchangeable things in which it was impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement ..." (Hebrews 6:18)

    So 'all things being "possible" through Christ' has limits. Hebrews 6:18 says it was impossible for God to lie. Also God cannot die. And there are limits upon "all things" being possible.

    Now there are many human beings that God desires us to pray for. I would not like to appear before God explaining that I didn't pray for so many of them because I was too busy praying for Satan's salvation. Would you?
  3. Standard memberscekk
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    13 Sep '07 06:29
    The way I see it: God will forgive sins of those that are not already condemned. Satan was condemned when kicked out of Heaven. All things may be possible, as long as they fit within the parameters that God has set.
  4. This is embarrasking
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    14 Sep '07 04:47
    Originally posted by scekk
    The way I see it: God will forgive sins of those that are not already condemned. Satan was condemned when kicked out of Heaven. All things may be possible, as long as they fit within the parameters that God has set.
    Both of the answers given in this thread seems to be good answers. I usually lean toward simplicity. I had the question asked of me once, and was stumped. I'm not sure how it would do any harm, but you are right about being condemned. Still one thing that baffles me in that theological answer, is that if God can change his mind and I believe that it would be imperfect not to be able to do so, Why not in this case? If something is not mentioned in the Bible does that mean posibilities can't exist?
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    14 Sep '07 06:321 edit
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Why not in this case? If something is not mentioned in the Bible does that mean posibilities can't exist?
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    I would think that the answer in many instances is no. What is revealed to us is regulated.

    I like the verse that says:

    "The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut. 29:29)

    Notice that there is a limit to what God has revealed to man in view of man's moral obligation to God. In other words God is not into satifying man's curiosity just for its own sake. It is like the educating of a growing and maturing child. He reveals to us what He deems important for us to know in view of our moral responsibility.

    Another passage may indicate that some things of God's doings on our behalf have not even entered into our hearts to imagine yet:

    'But as it is written, "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not come up in man's heart; things which God has prepared for those who love Him." ' (1 Cor. 2:9)

    Although some rightly point out that this passage speaks phrophetically of the redemption of Christ, I see no reason why it should be limited to only that. The fact of the matter is that still our hearts probably have no conceived what full heading up in Christ of the universe will entail.

    In both passages, God's revelation to man is not simply to tickle man's curiosity about everything for its own sake. He reveals what is related to our need to believe and obey Him now. He reveals what is related to the development of our love for Him.

    Now, having said that, it is pretty certain that Satan will NEVER repent and has his eternal destiny in the eternal damnation of perdition. That is what is revealed. That is what I am going on.

    "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

    Isn't this conclusive as to the destiny of the Devil? So he had his chance to turn and he did not. We needn't have a burden to pray for his salvation. He will never give up opposing God.

    Pray for your friends and your enemies to be saved. God's purpose is to dispense His life and nature into man's being to mass produce sons of God. These replace the ancient Day Star [Lucifer in Latin] who ages ago became Satan, the enemy of God and man.
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Sep '07 07:39
    Originally posted by cashthetrash
    If Christians believe in Prayer and salvation. And they also believe in the Satanic forces. Why don't Christians Pray for the Salvation of Satan. Aren't all things possible through Christ?
    There is no salvation for Satan and the demons, and if you are going
    to quote scripture I suggest you quote the full verse.
    Kelly
  7. This is embarrasking
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    14 Sep '07 20:22
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Why not in this case? If something is not mentioned in the Bible does that mean posibilities can't exist?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    I would think that the answer in many instances is no. What is revealed to us is regulated.

    I like the verse that says:

    "The things that are hidden belong to ...[text shortened]... r [Lucifer in Latin] who ages ago became Satan, the enemy of God and man.[/b]
    The thing is, that everyone seems to forget is that these scriptures have all been written by man. Man makes mistakes. So when you quote man, you are not necessarily quoting God.
  8. This is embarrasking
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    14 Sep '07 20:29
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    There is no salvation for Satan and the demons, and if you are going
    to quote scripture I suggest you quote the full verse.
    Kelly
    First of all I wasn't quoting scripture, I was expressing a thought and asking a question. But now that you mention it, why stop there, why not quote the bible instead. I find that a person can take a scripture and miss apply it to just about any argument. I also find you can take the letters in words and rearrange them to to say something totally different also. I find very little in your suggestion that is helpful. But I thank you anyway.
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    15 Sep '07 04:561 edit
    Originally posted by cashthetrash
    The thing is, that everyone seems to forget is that these scriptures have all been written by man. Man makes mistakes. So when you quote man, you are not necessarily quoting God.
    Today under the excuse the men make mistakes people are turning away from the healthy teaching the Lord Jesus Christ's words. The perculiar thing is that they gravitate then towards "teachers" who will tell them what they want to hear.

    "For the time will come when they will not tolerate the healthy teaching; but according to their own lusts they will heap up to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they will turn away their ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

    If you let distrust in the solid truth of the Bible grow in you, you probably will eventually choose your own untrue myths which you prefer to believe and be self deceived.

    The healthy spiritual teaching of the New Testament clearly indicates that Satan is doomed. Why do you want to turn away from that behind the excuse that men make mistakes? God is not so incapable as to not be able to deliver to us His word through the apostles and prophets, even thought they were human vessels.

    The Apostle Paul warns us not to teach differently from the healthy teaching of the New Testament:

    "If anyone teaches different things and does not consent to healthy words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching which is according to godliness, he is blinded with pride, understanding nothing, but is diseased with questionings and contentions of words, out of which come envy, strife, slanders, evil suspicions, perpetual wranglings of men corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth ..." (1 Tim. 6:4,5)

    A healthy inquirey into the word of God is good. But to be diseased with questions on the authority of the healthy spiritual teaching and its veracity will lead to more spiritual death and loss of enjoyment of God's Spirit.

    I want to trust the word of God, take in the healthy teaching, and not teach differently from the New Testament. This maximizes my enjoyment of Christ and of God.
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    15 Sep '07 05:09
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Why not in this case? If something is not mentioned in the Bible does that mean posibilities can't exist?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    I would think that the answer in many instances is no. What is revealed to us is regulated.

    I like the verse that says:

    "The things that are hidden belong to ...[text shortened]... r [Lucifer in Latin] who ages ago became Satan, the enemy of God and man.[/b]
    When I educate kids, I try to satisfy their curiosity. You don't?
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    15 Sep '07 05:281 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    When I educate kids, I try to satisfy their curiosity. You don't?
    Yes. But one time I went on and on about how the third rail of a subway was electric and could kill a person. The poor little ones got scared of trains after that. I realized what was a pleasant ride on the subway became a terror to them because I was over zealous to give them premature knowledge about which they did not have to worry.

    So you too probably regulate what your kids can handle. What is appropriate to their level of maturity is what you teach.

    God the heavenly Father also regulates what we need to know and be concerned with. In due time more will be revealed to us.

    Man can have a lust for premature knowledge which encreases his anxiety.

    Man also does not always obey the level of knowledge from God that he does have but rather thirsts for more and more in disobedience. For example, today God reveals to me that I am a fornicator and need to confess my sins that I may be forgiven and healed. But rather than respond to that knowledge from God I go on and on asking Him about what is on the dark side of the moon.

    So we are often out of touch with the knowledge that God HAS shown us, but rather lust for more in disobedience.
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    15 Sep '07 11:35
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Yes. But one time I went on and on about how the third rail of a subway was electric and could kill a person. The poor little ones got scared of trains after that. I realized what was a pleasant ride on the subway became a terror to them because I was over zealous to give them [b]premature knowledge about which they did not have to worry.

    So you too ...[text shortened]... out of touch with the knowledge that God HAS shown us, but rather lust for more in disobedience.[/b]
    I'm sorry, but that is one of the must ridiculous things I ever read.
    God regulates what we can know??? Man has thirst for knowledge: he is inteligent. There's not wrong with knowledge and wanting to know more.
    God or the bible has shown us NOTHING. No knowledge at all. It slowed down science 1000+ years. Every country where religion is taking a major importance is starting to get behind in every aspect. Free thinking and free actions with an educated population takes you further.
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    15 Sep '07 22:492 edits
    Serigado,

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I'm sorry, but that is one of the must ridiculous things I ever read.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    That you would doubt the truth of the matter seems very rediculous to me.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    God regulates what we can know??? Man has thirst for knowledge: he is inteligent.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Why does that seem unusual to you?

    What does either the human or the divine regulation and gradual education have to do with a thirst for knowledge?

    Did the fact that you had to undergo a series of successive "grades" in your education prove that someone was trying to stiffle your thirst for knowledge?

    Does the fact that God in the Bible, gradually unviels deeper and deeper levels of revelation about Himself mean He is stiffling your thirst for knowledge?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++
    There's not wrong with knowledge and wanting to know more.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++


    Could you quote me where I said it was basically wrong to want to know more?

    There is something wrong, however, with making knowledge such an idol that it replaces God. That is idolatry. And it damages mankind.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    God or the bible has shown us NOTHING.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Could you also quote me where I said God or the BIble has shown us nothing?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++
    No knowledge at all.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++


    Where did I say that God or the Bible has shown us no knowledge at all?

    +++++++++++++++++++++
    It slowed down science 1000+ years.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    The age of enlightenment and scientific discovery coincided with the release of the Bible from its Catholic prison so that the common people could read it. For about 1,000 years the Catholic clergy had the Bible locked up so only the priestly class could be trusted to read it.

    Was that the Bible's fault? The release of the Book into the hands of the everyday man spurred an age of freedom of thought and scientific discovery in the West.

    I think the release of the Bible to "commoners" from the clerical vaults of secrecy encouraged rather than discouraged scientific research.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Every country where religion is taking a major importance is starting to get behind in every aspect. Free thinking and free actions with an educated population takes you further.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Can you explain why the NASA astronauts saw fit to read from the Bible (Genesis) while they were circling the planet? Why was this kind of homage given to the Bible?

    If what you say is true you would have thought that that would be the last thing for them to pay thier respects to while in orbit.

    By the way. We are getting a little off the original issue. But I'll explain that perhaps latter. In short, God does not forbide man to learn more and more scientific information. I'm not sure He aid us by revelation.

    But I would not be so foolish as to think the blessing of God upon some societies was intrumental in the timing of certain scientific discoveries and inventions. And then He in turn uses some of those discoveries to reach more people with the gospel.

    This is kind of like the apostles using the roads that Roman engineering built to take the message of Christ to the world.

    And look at this marvelous Internet. I can share the truth of God's word with you by means of this great knowledge and invention.

    It is not just for helping you to shop for more material stuff more effectively.
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    16 Sep '07 13:491 edit
    Originally posted by cashthetrash
    If Christians believe in Prayer and salvation. And they also believe in the Satanic forces. Why don't Christians Pray for the Salvation of Satan. Aren't all things possible through Christ?
    First of all, God knows the outcome regarding salvation for all aspects of his creation. He knows what will happen with you and with me as well as with Lucifer. However, this does not mean that he controls either of us in this outcome. It will all come about via our own free will.

    Having said that, there are two thoughts here. Either Lucifer is unable to choose to repent or he is able to repent but will never choose it. Either way, God knows what will happen. We simply have the added benefit of scripturally knowing what will happen with Lucifer and not with us per sey.

    In terms of the hypothosis as to why Lucifer may not have the option to repent, lets consider the differences between mankind and Lucifer. Mankind is not 100% a spiritual being as Lucifer is. Could it be that this temperal material state affords us the chance to repent? Is time not simply an demension of the material universe rather than the spiritual realm? Then once we die we enter the spirital realm, thus, we too have made our choice, so to speak. Of coarse I cannot back this up with scripture and therefore am not 100% sure of my conclusinos, however, it is fun to think about, no?
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