"I know there is no God".
Actually, I do not "know" it. And I never make this claim.
We can certainly say we believe supernatural beings exist or don't exist.
Or... that we do not or cannot know either way.
We can also certainly say we believe that a specific God figure from a specific religious tradition exists or that we don't believe that a specific God figure, as described, exists.
But no matter how intense that belief or disbelief is, for us to assert that we know that something of this kind is true - or isn't - is simply using the word to signal how sincere and certain we are about our belief.
This is a dilution of the meaning of the word "know" that does not benefit the discourse.
@fmf saidBut no matter how intense that belief or disbelief is, for us to assert that we know that something of this kind is true - or isn't - is simply using the word to signal how sincere and certain we are about our belief.
"I know there is no God".
Actually, I do not "know" it. And I never make this claim.
We can certainly say we believe supernatural beings exist or don't exist.
Or... that we do not or cannot know either way.
We can also certainly say we believe that a specific God figure from a specific religious tradition exists or that we don't believe that a specific God figure, ...[text shortened]... belief.
This is a dilution of the meaning of the word "know" that does not benefit the discourse.
That sounds about right. People do sometimes interchange believing with knowing. Sloppy vocabulary is not a good thing. Thumbs for this one.
@mchill saidSeveral of the long time Christian posters here have betrayed me for asserting this point. I’ve been called all manner of unpleasant names for arguing that “knowing that God exists” and having faith that god exists are not the same thing.
People do sometimes interchange believing with knowing. Sloppy vocabulary is not a good thing.
Faith is a spiritual phenomenon and head-knowledge is something rooted in physical evidence. I have always found it interesting that some Christians get very bent out of shape when pressed on this.
@fmf saidBut no matter how intense that belief or disbelief is, for us to assert that we know that something of this kind is true - or isn't - is simply using the word to signal how sincere and certain we are about our belief. This is a dilution of the meaning of the word "know" that does not benefit the discourse.
"I know there is no God".
Actually, I do not "know" it. And I never make this claim.
We can certainly say we believe supernatural beings exist or don't exist.
Or... that we do not or cannot know either way.
We can also certainly say we believe that a specific God figure from a specific religious tradition exists or that we don't believe that a specific God figure, ...[text shortened]... belief.
This is a dilution of the meaning of the word "know" that does not benefit the discourse.
Can anything spiritual ever be physically proven?
Such as a near death experience where one talks with God, the miracles of Jesus, the death and resurrection of Jesus, unless one physically sees these miracles? Even then, can one physically prove it? Could those who saw Jesus murdered and put in a tomb, then they see Him alive a few days later, how can anyone physically prove such a thing that He was physically brought back to life from the dead?
Or, do they just know because of what they saw, and what personally has happened to them?
I don't know how well I'm doing trying to put forward my thoughts here.
I guess my question is: can any spiritual happenings ever be physically proven to others who were not present during the spiritual happenings?
I hope this makes sense.
@fmf saidI can say that I believe that "a God" exists, a Creator. But the more I read the Old Testament, the more doubt I have that it's describing such a Creator.
"I know there is no God".
Actually, I do not "know" it. And I never make this claim.
We can certainly say we believe supernatural beings exist or don't exist.
Or... that we do not or cannot know either way.
We can also certainly say we believe that a specific God figure from a specific religious tradition exists or that we don't believe that a specific God figure, ...[text shortened]... belief.
This is a dilution of the meaning of the word "know" that does not benefit the discourse.
The anger, jealousy, killings and allowed killings, wrath, etc.
Why would a Supreme Being create Adam and Eve, supposedly knowing exactly what they were going to do, then be pissed off at mankind for eternity over it, so much so, that a death had to occur to pay for it?
Just venting. The God of the Old Testament seems 'created' by man, with many human character flaws. Flaws that we try to fix in our own selves.
Thanks.
@kingdavid403 saidFirst thought: why would you want to "prove" it and to whom? You're either talking about faith or you're trying to deny it's a matter of faith. I'm not sure what that achieves.
Can anything spiritual ever be physically proven?
Second thought: I think people can KNOW what their spiritual beliefs are and they can KNOW what effect it has on their lives. I don't see how "proof" is necessary.
Third thought: I think someone can be very, very certain that some unprovable thing is true, and that's it. That's as near to KNOWING as they can get.
@kingdavid403 saidJesus was "murdered"? I thought he was executed by the Romans for sedition.
Could those who saw Jesus murdered and put in a tomb, then they see Him alive a few days later, how can anyone physically prove such a thing that He was physically brought back to life from the dead?
@kingdavid403 saidWe have no way of knowing what happened to the Jesus figure portrayed in the Bible or, indeed, whether or not he is a composite figure.
Could those who saw Jesus murdered and put in a tomb, then they see Him alive a few days later, how can anyone physically prove such a thing that He was physically brought back to life from the dead?
We do know what has been claimed about it [and him] and we know what the words on the page are.
But that stuff was written decades later - not by witnesses - but by people trying to start a religion who were consciously working very familiar religious memes into their text regarding things like a virgin birth and rising from the dead.
14 Oct 22
@fmf saidwhy would you want to "prove" it and to whom?
First thought: why would you want to "prove" it and to whom? You're either talking about faith or you're trying to deny it's a matter of faith. I'm not sure what that achieves.
Second thought: I think people can KNOW what their beliefs are and they can KNOW what effect it has on their lives.
Third thought: I think someone can be very, very certain that some unprovable thing is true, and that's it. That's as near to KNOWING as they can get.
I would hope that God would be able to prove to myself that my belief's are real and true about Him; which He has in my case. I personally don't want to prove anything to anyone; nor could I with spiritual matters (my point in previous post). God can; I can't.
I think people can KNOW what their beliefs are and they can KNOW what effect it has on their lives.
Yes.
I think someone can be very, very certain that some unprovable thing is true, and that's it. That's as near to KNOWING as they can get.
I disagree mostly. Example: In the Bible it talks about Peter getting his ear cut off by a guard when they came to arrest Jesus. Jesus then picked up his cut off ear and put it back in its place on Peters head totally healing him. Did this not give Peter the KNOWledge to KNOW whom Jesus was and that His claims about Himself were true, even tho it's unprovable to others?
So what about others who have had similar spiritual miracles happen to them? They now personally KNOW. This is my point.
@fmf saidBut that stuff was written decades later - not by witnesses - but by people trying to start a religion who were consciously working very familiar religious memes into their text regarding things like a virgin birth and rising from the dead.
We have no way of knowing what happened to the Jesus figure portrayed in the Bible or, indeed, whether or not he is a composite figure.
We do know what has been claimed about it [and him] and we know what the words on the page are.
But that stuff was written decades later - not by witnesses - but by people trying to start a religion who were consciously working very familiar religious memes into their text regarding things like a virgin birth and rising from the dead.
Mostly Not true. However, it cannot be proven because it's spiritual happenings. 🙂
@fmf saidJesus was "murdered"?
Jesus was "murdered"? I thought he was executed by the Romans for sedition.
Yes, by the Jews and Romans.
I thought he was executed by the Romans for sedition.
No. He was put to death by the Romans because the Jews began to riot for Jesus saying that He was the Son of God and The King of the Jews. I don't think that falls under sedition. The Romans were trying to stop the riot and nothing else.
The Romans wanted to let Him go because He did nothing wrong. The Jews then began to riot and called for His murder. The Romans obliged.
@kingdavid403 saidWe KNOW this is how the story goes. We don't KNOW that it happened. Anyone can tell a story which depicts that character X KNOWS Y because of Z.
In the Bible it talks about Peter getting his ear cut off by a guard when they came to arrest Jesus. Jesus then picked up his cut off ear and put it back in its place on Peters head totally healing him. Did this not give Peter the KNOWledge to KNOW whom Jesus was and that His claims about Himself were true, even tho it's unprovable to others?
14 Oct 22
@kingdavid403 saidAnd you claim to KNOW this or is it something that you BELIEVE is true?
Jesus was "murdered"?
Yes, by the Jews and Romans.
14 Oct 22
@kingdavid403 saidWe cannot KNOW that "miracles" happened to them but we CAN believe and claim that they KNEW that they did.
So what about others who have had similar spiritual miracles happen to them? They now personally KNOW. This is my point.
14 Oct 22
@kingdavid403 saidI am not sure exactly what you mean by "spiritual happening" but if you are referring to it being divinely directed or an accurate account of supernatural phenomena, then I do not have any reason to believe that the writing of the Bible was a "spiritual happening". I am not claiming that I KNOW this to be so.
But that stuff was written decades later - not by witnesses - but by people trying to start a religion who were consciously working very familiar religious memes into their text regarding things like a virgin birth and rising from the dead.
Mostly Not true. However, it cannot be proven because it's spiritual happenings.