1. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
    rvsakhadeo
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    07 Aug '11 11:24
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The best representation of God given to man for our understanding is
    His only begotten Son, Jesus the Christ, who explained Him as our
    Father in heaven.
    I regard Jesus as an Incarnation of God,who took human birth in order to spread love and brotherhood among us.
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Aug '11 13:232 edits
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    When I stated that,as per Hindu spiritualism, God is beyond human speech and understanding,did it not also mean that God is beyond logic? The word God has no denotation. I used to expect a serious dialogue between posters here but have been disappointed to see ridicule being heaped on the believers in the form of tooth fairies and the like. More like the ...[text shortened]... d taste better than dry bones of logic. But I suppose no true frog ever wants to leave his well.
    You seem to be of the opinion that I, and perhaps others hold that your god or RJHind's god or any other named god is more sophisticated or "grown-up" than the tooth fairy, that we hold these entities in higher esteem, that we respect them more, and that we are being dishonest when we compare the two as equals.

    This is not the case.
  3. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Aug '11 13:24
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    I regard Jesus as an Incarnation of God,who took human birth in order to spread love and brotherhood among us.
    Why are you not a Christian?
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Aug '11 13:31
    Originally posted by Agerg
    You seem to be of the opinion that I, and perhaps others hold that your god or RJHind's god or any other named god is more sophisticated or "grown-up" than the tooth fairy, that we hold these entities in higher esteem, that we respect them more, and that we are being dishonest when we compare the two as equals.

    This is not the case.
    Maybe 'No Stress Chess' would be better for you since you are still into
    fairy tales.
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Aug '11 13:38
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Maybe 'No Stress Chess' would be better for you since you are still into
    fairy tales.
    I fail to see how you get from I regard your god as no more sophisticated than the tooth fairy to I believe in fairy tales. Perhaps you think I believe in your god and then apply transitivity. You would be wrong.
  6. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    07 Aug '11 13:48
    Originally posted by Agerg
    You seem to be of the opinion that I, and perhaps others hold that your god or RJHind's god or any other named god is more sophisticated or "grown-up" than the tooth fairy, and that we are being dishonest when we compare the two as equals.

    This is not the case.
    My God includes your/our tooth fairy,your/our spaghetti monsters ( you do not have exclusive rights over TF and SM ) and all. God includes you,me,all theists and atheists as well as the labs and all scientific equipment,quasars, black holes,God particles hoped to have been produced at the Hadron particle accelerator,multiverse,logic systems like computers and what have you.Since according to my Hindu Spiritualism,God pervades everyone and everything,I do not think that my God or RJHinds's God,your non-God can be or are required to be compared and nor is any need there to call you dishonest.You are a shining example of honesty.
    I once again request you to try to understand the position of the theist that he cannot explain or prove his/her belief.What I would have expected from an intelligent and curious atheist was a request to us to further explain our side instead of overwhelming us with the tried and tested spaghetti monsters taking potshots at us.
  7. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Aug '11 14:212 edits
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    My God includes your/our tooth fairy,your/our spaghetti monsters ( you do not have exclusive rights over TF and SM ) and all. God includes you,me,all theists and atheists as well as the labs and all scientific equipment,quasars, black holes,God particles hoped to have been produced at the Hadron particle accelerator,multiverse,logic systems like computers instead of overwhelming us with the tried and tested spaghetti monsters taking potshots at us.
    The definition lacking god you propose here (apart from being "everything" ) sounds like a deist god or just the physical universe itself. I have no problems with this until you attach it to some sort of dogma (from which it chages to a different form of god); and coincidentally, the Hindu religion does have several "holy books". Once we reach the point that we're talking about some god related to the writings of ancient humans then it is fair play for me and others to compare it to other entities devised by humans.

    If you strip your god of all definitions and concede you can know nothing about it, if you divorce it of any organised religion or concensus of opinion about its nature, if you keep it as some undefined entity that may or may not exist in some dimension we cannot perceive or interact with then I'm happy. I won't subscribe to it myself but so long as you don't assert it definitely exists, or do a Dasa on us and try to replace science with this entity and so on... I'll have little to say about it.
  8. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    07 Aug '11 14:57
    Originally posted by Agerg
    The definition lacking god you propose here (apart from being "everything" ) sounds like a deist god or just the physical universe itself. I have no problems with this until you attach it to some sort of dogma (from which it chages to a different form of god); and coincidentally, the Hindu religion does have several "holy books". Once we reach the point that w ...[text shortened]... may or may not exist in some dimension we cannot perceive or interact with then I'm happy.
    I am unable to define or successfully describe God. But I know God exists just as you and I exist. I say God exists on the basis of experiences that our Saints and Gurus describe. I say God exists because when I see the night sky lit up with far away galaxies and other celestial objects shining their lights upon Earth,which transmission might have taken several million years to reach us,I am struck with humility and an overwhelming feeling of awe for the very greatness of my experience of just looking at them. I know God exists when the birds chirp in the morning in my garden and when my grandson,three and half months old, looks at me with eyes full of wonder. I know God exists when after a hard days work I come home and eat a meal lovingly prepared by my wife.I know God exists when I see that in spite of strifes,bloodshed,injustice,misery all over the planet,Humanity struggles with great spirit with all the problems life has presented to it,using wonderful tools like science and technology that have liberated and strengthened it. I know that God exists when persons like agerg or sonhouse or soothfast or 667joe or our very knowledgeable twhithead or andrew hamilton try to dissuade me from my belief or question it teasingly because I know that they have been blessed with the gift of curiosity that makes them so question me..Don't ask me not to believe me in God. I am sure you will be always happy whether I am a theist or not,so do not tempt me with the proposal of your happiness.
  9. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Aug '11 15:022 edits
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    I am unable to define or successfully describe God. But I know God exists just as you and I exist. I say God exists on the basis of experiences that our Saints and Gurus describe. I say God exists because when I see the night sky lit up with far away galaxies and other celestial objects shining their lights upon Earth,which transmission might have taken ways happy whether I am a theist or not,so do not tempt me with the proposal of your happiness.
    A god unattached to any dogma or religion serves just as well as a focal point for your awe and curiousity about the universe as a human defined god.

    I'm not asking you to not believe in God, merely to acknowledge that the human authors of your holy book have no place to make any assertions about it. I couldn't care a damn if everyone in the world other than me believed in some private, undefined god, just so long as they don't do so under a common banner and use it as a tool to suppress scientific enquiry.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Aug '11 20:06
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I fail to see how you get from I regard your god as no more sophisticated than the tooth fairy to I believe in fairy tales. Perhaps you think I believe in your god and then apply transitivity. You would be wrong.
    Just kidding. Trying to lighten up the discussion so that we can think
    more clearly.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Aug '11 20:14
    Originally posted by Agerg
    A god unattached to any dogma or religion serves just as well as a focal point for your awe and curiousity about the universe as a human defined god.

    I'm not asking you to not believe in God, merely to acknowledge that the human authors of your holy book have no place to make any assertions about it. I couldn't care a damn if everyone in the world other th ...[text shortened]... s they don't do so under a common banner and use it as a tool to suppress scientific enquiry.
    I think Jesus, being the only begotten Son of God, had a place to make
    assertions. The Prophets in the Holy Bible made prophecies that they
    said were from God about the coming Messiah and many of those
    prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus. And we Christians expect Him to
    come again and fulfill the the rest of the story.
  12. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    08 Aug '11 11:22
    Originally posted by Agerg
    A god unattached to any dogma or religion serves just as well as a focal point for your awe and curiousity about the universe as a human defined god.

    I'm not asking you to not believe in God, merely to acknowledge that the human authors of your holy book have no place to make any assertions about it. I couldn't care a damn if everyone in the world other th ...[text shortened]... s they don't do so under a common banner and use it as a tool to suppress scientific enquiry.
    Sorry for the late reply.
    The one book on which Hindu Spiritual Sadhaks as well as Gurus and Saints mostly rely on for guidance in spiritual matters is the Bhagavad Geeta or simply Geeta (sometimes spelt as Bhagavat Gita or Gita). This book is a part of Mahabharata,an epic poem credited to many authors and said to be compiled at about 2500 or more years ago.This book,in case you have not heard about it,is not a proselytsing book nor does it compel even Hindus to follow it.It is a treatise on matters concerning one's duty in life,morals to be adhered to and explanations of the ways to realise God.It does not contain anything that can be said to" suppress scientific enquiry". Hinduism or Hindu Religion has not suppressed any scientific enquiry.
    Hindus have not fought others on the grounds of Religion. Never.The only"banners"that they have united under were for political freedom.
    So what is your point?
    I noted that your anger-cum-hatred about religion came out in the word"damn". But why direct it against Hindu Spiritualism?And why be angry,anyway?
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