Idolitry?

Originally posted by whodey
So all blessing, honor, glory, and power belongs to the Lamb AND he who sits upon the throne?

Sorry mate, I just don't think we are reading the same thing.

sorry mate, i think you are not seeing the full picture. what is it about Christ never even having considered himself equal to God that you idolaters do not understand? what is it about him subjecting himself to God that you do not understand?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sorry mate, i think you are not seeing the full picture. what is it about Christ never even having considered himself equal to God that you idolaters do not understand? what is it about him subjecting himself to God that you do not understand?

He never claimed to be equal with the Father, only to be One. This is in comparison to my body claiming to be equal to my spirit. They simply are different aspects of the same being. You see, we are a triune being as well because we were made in his image.

Also I am awe struck with the notion that we cannot call the one who we both agree made us our God?

BTW: Could you make the same claim that Christ made, which is that if you have seen me you have seen the Father? Can anyone other than Jesus?

Originally posted by whodey
He never claimed to be equal with the Father, only to be One. This is in comparison to my body claiming to be equal to my spirit. They simply are different aspects of the same being. You see, we are a triune being as well because we were made in his image.

BTW: Could you make the same claim that Christ made, which is that if you have seen me you have seen the Father? Can anyone other than Jesus?

he is a created being, col 1;15 the begining of the creation by God. as soon as you idolators learn the meaning of this then you shall see cleary what Christ meant when he uttered those words. My wife says that I should not term you idolators, but I think it is self evident.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
he is a created being, col 1;15 the begining of the creation by God. as soon as you idolators learn the meaning of this then you shall see cleary what Christ meant when he uttered those words. My wife says that I should not term you idolators, but I think it is self evident.

It calls Chrsit the first born of all creation. For me, this is a reference to his birth from Mary, not a literal birth from the Father. Secondly, was Jesus a material being? If not, he existed before the material universe came into being, thus Jesus created time itself. The only other option is to say that Chist is the material universe.

Originally posted by whodey
It calls Chrsit the first born of all creation. For me, this is a reference to his birth from Mary, not a literal birth from the Father. Secondly, was Jesus a material being? If not, he existed before the material universe came into being, thus Jesus created time itself. The only other option is to say that Chist is the material universe.

oh please, enough of this dogma, the first born of all creation, before anything was made, the material universe, everything, angels, everything! therefore your attempts to marry the verse with your idolatry are laughable. at least Deucer tried the usual trinitarian nonsense of trying to convince us the reference was to Christ pre imminent position, but that Christ created himself, just as he resurrected himself, LOL, its is to laugh! get over it, Christ is a created being, he is not Almighty God, and you people are rendering worship to the creation rather than the creator! oh whodey, whodey, my friend, believe what you will, as for me, i cannot believe it, not after these references have shown otherwise, sorry it defies logic, denies the scriptures and really makes no sense. please be assured that the references to idolatry are tounge in cheek, but it does seem to me that you are unwittingly render worship to the creation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
According to the Bible more than one person was brought back to life. As far as I know, all these resurrections were attributed to God. Do you have any references of Jesus claiming to have done it himself?

Jesus did say in 3 days destroy this temple & I will raise it up! Referring to Himself not the physical temple that they were looking at.







Manny

Ok R.C. what is my fate if I don't give up my trinitarian views? I think it's interesting that we agree on a lot but the big disagreement is on the person of Christ. I brought up that bit of scripture about Apollos because he was off a bit but God corrected him through others. He humbly accepted it. For argument sake lets say I'm wrong in my trinitarian views then what is my fate? I'm starting to agree a bit that the early Church had differing views on issues. However what is our qualification for being a Christian? Believing in his words to us? Following after Him & what he commanded us to do. Does a theologically sound understanding at least initially matter?

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Jesus did say in 3 days destroy this temple & I will raise it up! Referring to Himself not the physical temple that they were looking at.







Manny

True, and you're right about The Trinity too.

Originally posted by menace71
Ok R.C. what is my fate if I don't give up my trinitarian views? I think it's interesting that we agree on a lot but the big disagreement is on the person of Christ. I brought up that bit of scripture about Apollos because he was off a bit but God corrected him through others. He humbly accepted it. For argument sake lets say I'm wrong in my trinitarian vie ...[text shortened]... ded us to do. Does a theologically sound understanding at least initially matter?

Manny

Manny knowledge is one thing, its application quite another. What did Christ say, that people shall know the true disciples because of the knowledge that they had?

(John 13:34-35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

Love is the identifying mark of true Christianity, self sacrificing love, not knowledge.

Paul had very interesting comment to make about the correlation between knowledge and love. Please consider this.

(1 Corinthians 13:1-3) . . .If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal.  And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.  And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.

unless the knowledge makes us more loving, tolerant, kind and considerate people, more willing to put ourselves out for friends and family, it is utter folly and vanity. Does this negate the value of knowledge, not at all, for it would seem that salvation to a degree depends upon it.

(John 17:3-4) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]oh please, enough of this dogma, the first born of all creation, before anything was made, the material universe, everything, angels, everything!

But time is merely a dimension of the material universe. Without the material universe time does not exist. So what you are saying is that Christ existed before time began if he came before the material universe. In this sense he is eternal just as the Father is eternal. That was my only point.

I still have an issue with the notion that Jesus created us but yet he is not our God. It simply makes no sense to me. In addition, it makes little sense how Christ is glorified and praised as I have shown and you do not refer to it as worship. Where else do we see created being being glorified and praised in the Bible?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Manny knowledge is one thing, its application quite another. What did Christ say, that people shall know the true disciples because of the knowledge that they had?

(John 13:34-35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disci ...[text shortened]... taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Just a side comment on John 13: 34,35. Do Catholics have this kind of love among themselves? Do they go to war for their governments and kill fellow Catholics from another country?

How do JW's answer the reaction of Thomas when seeing Jesus after the resurrection? Jesus did not rebuke Thomas in anyway for his statement.


John 20:28

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
How do JW's answer the reaction of Thomas when seeing Jesus after the resurrection? Jesus did not rebuke Thomas in anyway for his statement.


John 20:28

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"



Manny

I am sure they will say something to the effect that in the Greek they used a little "l" and a little "g". However, the scripture of Rev 19:16 is somewhat problematic when Christ is referred to as the Lord of lords and King of kings. Eeeks!!

I was reading some back ground on this John 20:28 and it would ridiculous for a Jew to address a fellow associate or Human in this manner. The Jews being highly monotheistic. The surprising thing is Jesus once again does not rebuke him for this at all.






Manny

KURIOS & THEOS are the Greek words used.









Manny