Originally posted by LemonJello"I understand then why the doctrines that explain everything to me also debilitate me at the same time. They relieve me of the weight of my own life, and yet I must carry it alone."
if those are the rules, then i will leave it. given the lack of evidence, i don't see how my faith could ever be "sincere" anyway. how can one commit his intellect to beliefs that he perceives to be completely arbitrary? it would be the height of insincerity, like trying to feign love.
religion offers "answers" to the questions surrounding th ...[text shortened]... They relieve me of the weight of my own life, and yet I must carry it alone."
--Albert Camus
Recced! Is this from The Myth of Sisyphus? If so, I must re-read it. I've been grappling with this very thing all day in my own head....
Originally posted by LemonJelloI understand, but personally, I see the beauty of creation as evidence of Intelligent design. From the beauty of the human body(design wise) to nature and the way the universe is precisely set up.
if those are the rules, then i will leave it. given the lack of evidence, i don't see how my faith could ever be "sincere" anyway. how can one commit his intellect to beliefs that he perceives to be completely arbitrary? it would be the height of insincerity, like trying to feign love.
religion offers "answers" to the questions surrounding th ...[text shortened]... They relieve me of the weight of my own life, and yet I must carry it alone."
--Albert Camus
From this premise, I believed in God at the first. Then when I began to read the bible, even though it didn't make a lot of sense at the time, it didn't stop me from believing.
I don't understand electricity, but I believe in it. So it was with the bible.
Then when I asked, it started to unfold in ways I could never have imagined.
Now I understand a great deal of it, along with a lot of impossible events that happened in my life as a result.
But none of this can convince anyone else, because none of you know me. And I say again, I understand where you are coming from, Thus my question again, why do so many intelligent people believe and just as many don't?
My only clues are what I read in the bible, as this article points out.
The Jews requested a sign(evidence) and the reply was ...
Matt 12:39
39But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
(NKJ)
But this was 2000 years ago! So it would be difficult to apply this thinking today, which was symbolic of His ressurection. That is, the sign of Jonah.
What I have concluded is that God set it up this way for reasons unknown to me. But I see other things that come into play here.
God is not a distant, cold, entity beyond understanding. At least not totally. I see He has feelings. He has given us creation, life, freedom of will, the bible and prophecy.
I see the promises being fulfilled, like Isreal becoming a nation once again (1948).
The old cliche "seeing equals believing" is just the opposite of what He demands.
I know of great and intelligent men/woman who started serious bible study with a skeptical point of view, who later came to Christ.
I also know of people who did get "signs" or some phenomena in their lives that caused them to believe. Why this is not the case for everyone, I don't know.
To my shame, I will admit that a lot of the fault lies with Christians themselves. Those who believe but do not walk in faith. There are far too many of us that profess faith and live in "unbelief" when things get tough. God "tries" Christians. And too many of us fail.
I mean, what would it be like if their were Christians everywhere like Paul, Peter, etc., healing people and so on?
So, I suppose we have failed those don't believe, to some extent, and someday we will have to answer for that.
Well, I guess I answered my own question as I was thinking about this.
Thank you for your answers..... 🙂
Originally posted by vistesdHello Vistesd ...glad to see you are back....🙂
[b]"I understand then why the doctrines that explain everything to me also debilitate me at the same time. They relieve me of the weight of my own life, and yet I must carry it alone."
Recced! Is this from The Myth of Sisyphus? If so, I must re-read it. I've been grappling with this very thing all day in my own head....[/b]
Originally posted by vistesdI am good...I have missed some of your sound and pleasant post's.
Thanks, CB. I was just thinking of you today--when we had a discussion on the basis of morality, and came to a friendly and agreeable impasse, as I remember. Hope you're well.
I hope all is well with you too.
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
I understand, but personally, I see the beauty of creation as evidence of Intelligent design. From the beauty of the human body(design wise) to nature and the way the universe is precisely set up.
I don't follow. It is well-known (except perhaps to AIG) that the human eye is inefficient from an engineering standpoint. It seems that the 'beauty' you refer to is more aptly coined 'vanity'.
none of this can convince anyone else, because none of you know me. And I say again, I understand where you are coming from, Thus my question again, why do so many intelligent people believe and just as many don't?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'intelligent people' and 'believe.' If 'intelligent people' means people with a high degree of education, I'd point out that 'not religious' is a much more common response among the PhD's than among high school dropouts, with the degree of 'non-religion' reponses monotonically decreasing as you go down the spectrum.
'Believe' is even more troublesome. If 'believe' means to believe in xianity or more specifically in an evangelical sort of Protestantim, then certainly a much smaller fraction than 1/2 'believe.' This group only makes up between 20%-25% of the general American population. Not only does this population include the entire education spectrum, but among nations in the world, America is one the most, if not the most, evangelical country. If however you take 'believe' to mean any form of theism, then I'd say far more than 1/2 any education level believe.
But I see other things that come into play here.
God is not a distant, cold, entity beyond understanding. At least not totally. I see He has feelings. He has given us creation, life, freedom of will, the bible and prophecy.
Given that you do not know his reasons, how do you "see" that he has feelings? Why is his giving us these things you list evidence that he cares? Could it not also be evidence that he gets off on playing horribly cruel tricks?
I see the promises being fulfilled, like Isreal becoming a nation once again (1948).
This evidence is weakened severely by the fact that it was manufactured in great part because of the West's desire to see this Biblical promise obtain
You mention intelligent people you know who studied the Bible skeptically and in the course of doing so converted. I'd venture that for one of these you know, I know 10 people who believed with all their heart and earnestly studied the Bible to know God more and because of what they discovered in the process, abandoned their faith.
Originally posted by vistesdI have just recently been introduced to the works of Camus, and, yes, that quote came from excerpts that I have been reading from The Myth of Sisyphus and Other Essays. I have enjoyed reading Camus quite a bit because it is often easy to empathize with Sisyphus, the Absurd Hero.
Recced! Is this from The Myth of Sisyphus? If so, I must re-read it. I've been grappling with this very thing all day in my own head....
4 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloThanks, LJ, for the Camus reference. I hadn’t read him in some years, and have just started on The Myth of Sisyphus again. How wonderfully he describes the experience I began to go through when I was about 40 years old, and the structures of the “hopeful” (in Camus’ sense) paradigmatic compound in which I had lived my whole life began to slowly crumble—a compound based in large measure on the idea that my life, my existence here, my “taking up space,” needed to be somehow justified, and a system of justification that relied in large part on how well I sought out, identified and fulfilled all the requisite duties and obligations (a process without limits, in which “good” was never “good enough” ). Oh yes, there was the “justification by faith through grace” stuff, too, but that seemed to have nothing to say about how I actually lived out my life.
I have just recently been introduced to the works of Camus, and, yes, that quote came from excerpts that I have been reading from The Myth of Sisyphus and Other Essays. I have enjoyed reading Camus quite a bit because it is often easy to empathize with Sisyphus, the Absurd Hero.
Anyway, it began to “all fall down,” not all at once, but inexorably (a "slow catastrophe" ), despite my best efforts to maintain it. Again, Camus describes it well—
“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man [sic] feels an alien and a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land.” (I think here also of Archibald MacLeish’s poem “The End of the World.” )
I have become “a stranger in a strange land,” a nomad; and learning to live in a desert of vast horizons and few landmarks*—and to live there with eudaimonia—is difficult, but has its own richness and flavor and harmony. And I have found companionship with other wanderers (most notably my wife) along the way.
Perhaps this is what telerion means by the deconversion experience—with years of struggle on my part not to simply “reconvert” to some other religious or philosophical “compound” in which to take comfort from promises of certainty in an uncertain life, a struggle marked by repeated slips (some of which have been pointed out to me by my friends on here—something I hope they will continue to do). Again, the line you quoted from Camus: “I understand then why the doctrines that explain everything to me also debilitate me at the same time. They relieve me of the weight of my own life, and yet I must carry it alone.”
*I do find landmarks, for example, say, in Lao Tzu.
Originally posted by telerionI don't follow. It is well-known (except perhaps to AIG) that the human eye is inefficient from an engineering standpoint. It seems that the 'beauty' you refer to is more aptly coined 'vanity'.
Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]I understand, but personally, I see the beauty of creation as evidence of Intelligent design. From the beauty of the human body(design wise) to nature and the way the universe is precisely set up.
I don't follow. It is well-known (except perhaps to AIG) that the human eye is inefficient from an engineerin ...[text shortened]... ible to know God more and because of what they discovered in the process, abandoned their faith.[/b]
Is that a shared opinion/fact with all engineers? I never heard this before.
There are extensive other marvels in creation. Too much in my opinion to simply write it off as coincidence.
If 'intelligent people' means people with a high degree of education, I'd point out that 'not religious' is a much more common response among the PhD's than among high school dropouts, with the degree of 'non-religion' reponses monotonically decreasing as you go down the spectrum.
Yes this is what I meant....interesting.
'Believe' is even more troublesome. If 'believe' means to believe in xianity or more specifically in an evangelical sort of Protestantim, then certainly a much smaller fraction than 1/2 'believe.' This group only makes up between 20%-25% of the general American population. Not only does this population include the entire education spectrum, but among nations in the world, America is one the most, if not the most, evangelical country.
Yes I did mean Xtianity. And wasn't America the leader in Technology, education, and almost everything else for the last 100 or more years? Many believe it was because America is blessed by God. Now, that seems to be changing. Could that be because of the numbers you have shown? Where so many are abandoning Xtianity?
Given that you do not know his reasons, how do you "see" that he has feelings? Why is his giving us these things you list evidence that he cares? Could it not also be evidence that he gets off on playing horribly cruel tricks
I don't know the reasons why some believe and some don't. I meant more in the educated populace. But this has nothing to do with God not having feelings. There are many biblical records that show that He does.
There are verses that say He is sometimes .. angry, loving. sad and many other feelings and certainly not in that order.
This evidence is weakened severely by the fact that it was manufactured in great part because of the West's desire to see this Biblical promise obtain
Manufactured? This is a bit of a stretch isn't it? This is new to me. Can you enlighten me here?
You mention intelligent people you know who studied the Bible skeptically and in the course of doing so converted. I'd venture that for one of these you know, I know 10 people who believed with all their heart and earnestly studied the Bible to know God more and because of what they discovered in the process, abandoned their faith.
I could not dispute that. I have no way of knowing....thanks for your input....you have helped me more than you know.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThis is the sort of cr@p that the British believed of themselves when we had an empire on which the sun never set. It engendered the arrogance with which American stereotype the Brits. It has engendered an arrogance in the US with which the rets of the world sereotypes you.
[
Yes I did mean Xtianity. And wasn't America the leader in Technology, education, and almost everything else for the last 100 or more years? Many believe it was because America is blessed by God. Now, that seems to be changing. Could that be because of the numbers you have shown? Where so many are abandoning Xtianity?
[/b]
Originally posted by aardvarkhomeIf America displays arrogance, it is not for the reasons I mentioned.
This is the sort of cr@p that the British believed of themselves when we had an empire on which the sun never set. It engendered the arrogance with which American stereotype the Brits. It has engendered an arrogance in the US with which the rets of the world sereotypes you.
It would be due to abandoning Xtianity and seeing herself as better than others. Since this is in direct violation to God's commands, then I would have to disagree with you. The same can be said of Great Britain.
Both are great nations, but both are in decline from their "greatness", because both seem to have abandoned their heritage. That is..
Ps 33:12
12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.
(NKJ)
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo, when slavery was legal in the United States, was that consistent or inconsistent with our putatively christian heritage? When Thomas Jefferson took a razor to his Bible, and excised everything he took to be flat wrong, or stinking of the supernatural, was that in accord with our putatively christian heritage? Was the widespread deism of our founding fathers consistent with our putatively christian heritage? Our heritage is a mixed bag, with both religious and secular elements, and our founding fathers, in a bit of wisdom sadly lacking from much of current politics, realized that a healthy democracy required protecting liberty from religious trespass as well as protecting private religious expression from persecution. If reasonable pluralism is inconsistent with being "blessed" by your deity, then why ought we be concerned with being "blessed"?
If America displays arrogance, it is not for the reasons I mentioned.
It would be due to abandoning Xtianity and seeing herself as better than others. Since this is in direct violation to God's commands, then I would have to disagree with you. The same can be said of Great Britain.
Both are great nations, but both are in decline from their "greatness ...[text shortened]... sed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.
(NKJ)
Originally posted by checkbaiterBoth nations have made the mistake of equating military might with greatness of heart. Both fell in to this folly when the church was stronger than it is today. When did god command nations to take up arms, to spend their treasure on dealing death rather than bringing life and hope?
If America displays arrogance, it is not for the reasons I mentioned.
It would be due to abandoning Xtianity and seeing herself as better than others. Since this is in direct violation to God's commands, then I would have to disagree with you. The same can be said of Great Britain.
Both are great nations, but both are in decline from their "greatness ...[text shortened]... sed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.
(NKJ)
Originally posted by bbarrI believe God hated slavery...and the nation paid dearly for it.
So, when slavery was legal in the United States, was that consistent or inconsistent with our putatively christian heritage? When Thomas Jefferson took a razor to his Bible, and excised everything he took to be flat wrong, or stinking of the supernatural, was that in accord with our putatively christian heritage? Was the widespread deism of our founding fath ...[text shortened]... ent with being "blessed" by your deity, then why ought we be concerned with being "blessed"?
Jefferson, was not a true Christian. He believed in God (I think), but had a different view of the scriptures. I think he even wrote his own version, excluding miracles, etc. Deism is definately not a positive part of our heritage, I agree.
But to call American religious heritage a mixed bag is probably not fair.
I think God "raised up" leaders in times of trouble, trying to bring America back to what was right. And sure, you can point to the negative aspects of history, but the majority of the country was still "God fearing".
Today, the "morality" of America is much different than it's early years.
And my opinion is that there is little "fear of God" anywhere anymore.
If we get rid of all of Christianity...well..... the results will be known in time....maybe soon, I'm afraid.
Originally posted by aardvarkhomeWhen did god command nations to take up arms, to spend their treasure on dealing death rather than bringing life and hope?
Both nations have made the mistake of equating military might with greatness of heart. Both fell in to this folly when the church was stronger than it is today. When did god command nations to take up arms, to spend their treasure on dealing death rather than bringing life and hope?
I don't think He did. Our nation isn't run by biblical dogma.