If I didn't know...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what i am saying is that you must be able to differentiate the teachings of Christ from the teachings of the church or so called Christianity, the two are not the same!

Christ for example never taught that there was a hell of literal eternal torment, quite contrary to what the church, Christianity and the majority of Christians profess.

here p ...[text shortened]... s, are the two not distinct, the sublime teachings of Christ and the traditions of the church!

What do you make of the words of Jesus here:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
-Matt 25:31 (NKJV)

(my emphasis)

Originally posted by SwissGambit
What do you make of the words of Jesus here:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His ...[text shortened]... punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
-Matt 25:31 (NKJV)

(my emphasis)[/b]

its very simple my friend, fire is used as a symbol of destruction, as in the lake of fire in revelation, gehenna, the valley of hinnom etc etc, this idea of punishment is not a correct translation, been through it at great length with jaywill and epi, the correct translation is a cutting off, thus preserving the antithesis of the verse, everlasting life on the one hand and everlasting cutting off (destruction) on the other (the second death, without the prospect of a resurrection).

the whole idea stems from the premise that we have an eternal soul, something that transcends death, live on eternally, and thus be punished, not a biblical teaching!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its very simple my friend, fire is used as a symbol of destruction, as in the lake of fire in revelation, gehenna, the valley of hinnom etc etc, this idea of punishment is not a correct translation, been through it at great length with jaywill and epi, the correct translation is a cutting off, thus preserving the antithesis of the verse, everlasting ...[text shortened]... mething that transcends death, live on eternally, and thus be punished, not a biblical teaching!

"the whole idea stems from the premise that we have an eternal soul, something that transcends death, live on eternally, and thus be punished, not a biblical teaching!"

I'm not necessarily convinced that anyone will suffer in a lake of fire for eternity, and tentatively agree with you about fire as a symbol of destruction.

Could you explain how you arrive at the conclusion that the soul is not eternal?

I ask as I am not entirely certain that it is, and I would like to hear your explanation.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its very simple my friend, fire is used as a symbol of destruction, as in the lake of fire in revelation, gehenna, the valley of hinnom etc etc, this idea of punishment is not a correct translation, been through it at great length with jaywill and epi, the correct translation is a cutting off, thus preserving the antithesis of the verse, everlasting ...[text shortened]... mething that transcends death, live on eternally, and thus be punished, not a biblical teaching!

Even under your interpretation, HoH's question still presents a dilemma for you; do those who die ignorant of Jesus/Christianity suffer destruction of their soul? If not, why should anyone be told about Jesus?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Even under your interpretation, HoH's question still presents a dilemma for you; do those who die ignorant of Jesus/Christianity suffer destruction of their soul? If not, why should anyone be told about Jesus?

God is a god of justice, why would he condemn anyone who dies ignorant of the teachings of Christ? look at the passage you gave, those who were sent off into everlasting destruction were sent on what basis? that they did nor receive Christs brothers or the message hospitably, thus in order for you to reach the point that you merit condemnation you would need to have made a conscious decision to reject the teachings , is it not so? But this is not Gods will that individuals suffer destruction, for the famous scripture at 2 Peter 3:9 states (off the top of my head), that God does not desire any to be destroyed, but desires all to attain to repentance.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"the whole idea stems from the premise that we have an eternal soul, something that transcends death, live on eternally, and thus be punished, not a biblical teaching!"

I'm not necessarily convinced that anyone will suffer in a lake of fire for eternity, and tentatively agree with you about fire as a symbol of destruction.

Could you explain how ...[text shortened]...

I ask as I am not entirely certain that it is, and I would like to hear your explanation.[/b]

sure, if you are prepared to look at some scriptural references, like the following:

Matthew 10:28, King James Version, reads: “Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (eternal destruction).” so the soul can be destroyed!

Also Ezekiel 18:4, states: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” again referring to the mortality of the human soul.

and lastly and in my opinion most convincingly

''For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.'' Ecclesiastes 9:5,

for if the dead are not conscious, then how can they be tormented and feel pain?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Dear oh dear, this post really betrays a lack of understanding that reeks of pure unadulterated ignorance. please if you are going to post such like, will you first of all try to determine what the entities are that you are referring to actually mean, for example, hell? what is that? for as far as i am concerned its a NON CHRISTIAN, ESSENTIALLY PA ...[text shortened]... criteria, you will be in a better position to formulate an opinion based on accurate knowledge.

"Reeks of pure unadulterated ignorance." Check. Funnily enough, this is how I feel about Christianity in general.

By the way, are you sure that you're reading the same bible the rest of us are?

Hell/Eternity:
Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15). All your basic burning in the lake of fire, eternal life, shame, etc, etc...

Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8). More burning of sinners, teh Devil, demons, etc... There are other passages, but, you get the idea. Sinners get the shaft. Eternal torture and burning. Yey!

The Soul:
There are many references throughout the bible to the soul. My favorites would be:
Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. Oh and here's a good one for you: Roman's 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The soul, life force, call it what you will, lives on with the Lord after death. I never said anything about eternal punishment, immortal souls, etc... Obviously you've read my post about as well as you've read the bible.

Sin:
At this point I've concluded that you're an idiot. However, for the sake of charity, I'll elaborate. Sin is frequently found described in the bible as a blatant transgression or simply falling short of God's expectations.

Roman's make's sin a moot point, for we're all sinners and only redeemed by our belief in Christ. Romans 3:22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25

Finally, Peter helps address both your concerns about the soul/spirit and sin.
Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Really, you need to spend more time reading the bible so you'll be in a better position to formulate an opinion based on accurate knowledge.

Originally posted by josephw
But you have heard!


Is God unjust?

As has been pointed out to me, it is unreasonable to judge the action or inaction of a supreme being in human terms. Hence, I cannot reasonably judge the justness of God.

You tell me, is God just? Is the suffering, purposeless condition of man just? Why even bother creating man? Especially with the promise of an apocolypse? Boredom? We aren't even promised success, the universe, the fulfillment of our quest for knowledge.

I remain disappointed and would rather be a blissfully ignorant Eskimo.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what i am saying is that you must be able to differentiate the teachings of Christ from the teachings of the church or so called Christianity, the two are not the same!

Christ for example never taught that there was a hell of literal eternal torment, quite contrary to what the church, Christianity and the majority of Christians profess.

here p ...[text shortened]... s, are the two not distinct, the sublime teachings of Christ and the traditions of the church!

None of the words in the bible were written by Christ. How are you making the differentiation between the teachings of Christ and what has been tainted by others?

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
"Reeks of pure unadulterated ignorance." Check. Funnily enough, this is how I feel about Christianity in general.

By the way, are you sure that you're reading the same bible the rest of us are?

[b]Hell/Eternity:
Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15). All your ...[text shortened]... in a better position to formulate an opinion based on accurate knowledge.[/b][/i][/b]

quite clearly you have not the remotest idea of what you are talking about, perhaps if you went to the original languages, you know, Hebrew and Greek instead of issuing your imbecilic insults, reminiscent of Sylvester the putty cat, you would do better, otherwise take up a job as a cappuccino maker, they could sure use your froth!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sure, if you are prepared to look at some scriptural references, like the following:

Matthew 10:28, King James Version, reads: “Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (eternal destruction).” so the soul can be destroyed!

Also Ezekiel 18:4, states: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” again referring to the mortality of ...[text shortened]... es 9:5,

for if the dead are not conscious, then how can they be tormented and feel pain?

What are your thoughts concerning the rich man in hell?

I've been told that it isn't a parable. "A certian rich man.."

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
quite clearly you have not the remotest idea of what you are talking about, perhaps if you went to the original languages, you know, Hebrew and Greek instead of issuing your imbecilic insults, reminiscent of Sylvester the putty cat, you would do better, otherwise take up a job as a cappuccino maker, they could sure use your froth!

I beg your pardon, but, you came out guns blazing first my small minded little friend. I at least had the courtesy to answer your questions in a coherent fashion. Yes, I insulted you, because you had it coming. I don't care if that pisses you off or not, but, let's not pretend to be virtuous inocent party.

I take it that you're proficient in Hebrew and Greek? You have conveniently ignored my argument. Really, I'd expect nothing less as, unless you can demonstrate otherwise, I'll consider you incapable of holding your own in any real debate.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I beg your pardon, but, you came out guns blazing first my small minded little friend. I at least had the courtesy to answer your questions in a coherent fashion. Yes, I insulted you, because you had it coming. I don't care if that pisses you off or not, but, let's not pretend to be virtuous inocent party.

I take it that you're proficient in Heb ...[text shortened]... demonstrate otherwise, I'll consider you incapable of holding your own in any real debate.

i thought i saw a putty cat, i did, i did see a putty cat! that bad ol putty cat

i have in my library a number of Greek interlinear translations not to mention a few Hebrew and some Hebrew and Greek lexicons as well.

sorry but i don't do bad language either, you have answered nothing, nor have you defined anything. why when someone points out an inadequacy do you crack up with insults, is that the best you can do? i do not need to debate anything with you, for i know what the Hebrew and Greek words for soul, hell and sin are, and their connotations and shades of meaning, you obviously don't, nor the understanding of the verses sited either in immediate context, nor greater context, for if you had, you would be able to realize the proper translation and meaning, and thus you would also be able to formulate a proper and informed understanding instead of resorting to insults, thus until you ascertain what these words mean in the original language you remain in your ignorance. as for your bad language and insults, three strikes and your out.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i thought i saw a putty cat, i did, i did see a putty cat! that bad ol putty cat

i have in my library a number of Greek interlinear translations not to mention a few Hebrew and some Hebrew and Greek lexicons as well.

sorry but i don't do bad language either, you have answered nothing, nor have you defined anything. why when someone points out ...[text shortened]... u remain in your ignorance. as for your bad language and insults, three strikes and your out.

You deserve your own company.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
You deserve your own company.

yep, because you certainly don't, cya!