If I didn't know...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its not cruel, you should know better than that Fabian my friend, or perhaps you can relate the teaching of Christ that betrays this cruelty, but then again, it is well understood that Christianity and Christ are not synonymous.

Now I don't really understand you.
You mean that a good non-christian person has to suffer the fires of hell eternally, but a evil christian would enjoy the paradice for ever?
And this is not cruel?

That's one reason that I think the I cannot believe in the christian god, because it's so far from the teaching of love from the great filosopher Jesus.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is quite simple, a christian is one who follows and adopts the teachings of Christ.

And that follows the definition above.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin would I go to Hell?

If the answer is, "No," why would you ever tell anyone about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin?

If the answer is, "Yes," are we really prepared to worship a God that would commit millions of otherwise good souls to burn in Hell?

……If the answer is, "No," why would you ever tell anyone about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin? ..…

-because you wrongly think the answer is “yes”.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Now I don't really understand you.
You mean that a good non-christian person has to suffer the fires of hell eternally, but a evil christian would enjoy the paradice for ever?
And this is not cruel?

That's one reason that I think the I cannot believe in the christian god, because it's so far from the teaching of love from the great filosopher Jesus.

I have to admit that I feel a bit uneasy arguing to defend a belief which I do not follow, but here goes anyway.

I would argue that there can be no such thing as an evil Christian: if they are evil, they are no follower of Christ, simple as that. If Hitler truly converted in his last moments, and realised all (that we believe, using our Christian-based ethics) he did wrong, then according to Christianity he would no longer be an evil man, but a good man with an evil past. That is one of the main attractions of Christianity -- it's not too late for anyone.

Of course, that you are assuming that a man can be inherently evil, rather than his actions being evil, is another thing altogether. It seems to me that to assume that someone is inherently evil because of some of the things they have done, when you can not know everything about them, is not dissimilar to the assumption that because a group of people perform one action all of their countrymen must do the same things.

Now if you quote the Evangelists again, please bear in mind that the gospel we call 'John' was likely written around 70-80 years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth. Each of the Gospels are also first-and-foremost accounts of Jesus' trial and execution, so we can expect that to be the most accurate. To base religion on other parts where the authors of the Gospels were likely guessing what Jesus might have said, seems odd.

However, to follow Christian doctrine as a whole, in its essence -- that is to be a good and honourable person who also believes in God -- I would say makes one a Christian. Redemption simply brings one into line with this idea.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin would I go to Hell?

If the answer is, "No," why would you ever tell anyone about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin?

If the answer is, "Yes," are we really prepared to worship a God that would commit millions of otherwise good souls to burn in Hell?

Jesus Christ will return as the Judge of every individual: believer, non-believer, and ignorant alike. He will judge justly. Every one of us will be judged according to the knowledge we had, not according to the knowledge we didn't have.

No Christian knows who will and who will not go to heaven; all the Christian knows is that if any one does go to heaven, it will be through Christ and by no other way.

An Eskimo who has never heard of Christ, if he lived according to the light which lights the conscience of all men, "the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world" (John 1:9), will be judged according to the light he was given; i.e., whether or not his deeds reflected an acquiescence to that light.

Further, since an individual is already judged according to his or her cooperative response to God's will (as it lights the conscience), and because believing in the Gospel is itself a cooperative response to God's will, it cannot be said that sharing the Gospel with a heretofore ignorant person introduces a compounded possibility of damnation. The Gospel is God's will; all who reject it are acting in disobedience to the light that is in them; all who believe it are acting in obedience to the light that is in them. The format hasn't changed, just the choice is more stark.

For instance, the Eskimo who violates his own conscience, whether or not he's heard of God's law or Jesus Christ, is in danger of God's judgment. Likewise, if you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you are in danger of God's judgment. Both are instances of disobeying the light which God imparts to the consciences of all people entering into the world.

Making it entirely possible that an Eskimo who has never heard of Christ may in fact make it to heaven, while the hypocrite who knows the Bible front to back verbatim does not.

...just to clarify. Many people, and (from what I can see) especially atheists refer to "hell" as a place of physical pain an torture. That is not the God I know. I believe "hell" to be simply a place void of God. I cannot imagine a worse fate than that. I refuse to believe that God will give "lost souls" perpetual-healing bodies so that they can suffer burning over and over again. I believe this "burining" to be one of regret and remorse, a terrible heartache, if you will, for simply choosing wrong...

Revelations 20:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

so it's not a literal fire then?

Originally posted by PawnChop
Revelations 20:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

so it's not a literal fire then?

Either way, it's bad.

Originally posted by PawnChop
Revelations 20:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

so it's not a literal fire then?

Whatever it is it is to be avoided.

Please get the point.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin would I go to Hell?

If the answer is, "No," why would you ever tell anyone about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin?

If the answer is, "Yes," are we really prepared to worship a God that would commit millions of otherwise good souls to burn in Hell?

The gospel is about the "good news". So what is the "good news"? It is about the possibility of being free from what enslaves us, namely sin. So what is "sin"? If you don't know or if you don't believe that sin exists, more than likely the gospels will have no appeal whatsoever. I would just say that if you feel compelled to do things you hate and/or find yourself in situations that you never thought you would lower yourself too but can't seem to stop then you should have a good idea about what I am talking about. I once heard a preacher say that the freedom is freedom from bondage from serving your own desires above all else. It is the realization that we are hopelessly self centered and self serving at heart and that we desire to change but can't seem to be able to do so. In contrast, I think that most people view the faith as a bunch of do's and don'ts that limit what we really want to do.

As far as who makes it into heaven and who does not, don't ask me. All I know is that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. As for people who have not heard of him or people who are deceived about who he really is etc., the Bible simply does not say. As for my own belief, I would say that people who died before Christ ever lived are granted access to heaven via his sacrifice even though they never heard of him. Such examples would be Abraham, Moses etc.. Clearly, these people made it even though they did not know about Christ. As for everyone else, let God be the judge. 😉

So the question must be asked, if we continue in bondage have do we really know of the "good news" and the power thereof to free us from such bondage? People like Hitler etc, clearly continued in such bondage even though they may at one point have espoused a belief in God.

Originally posted by jaywill
Whatever it is it is to be [b]avoided.

Please get the point.[/b]

Yes, fall in line with the mind control.

Fear the unknown; convince yourself that the worst possible fate will befall you after you die. Then you will be ripe for conversion.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin would I go to Hell?

If the answer is, "No," why would you ever tell anyone about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin?

If the answer is, "Yes," are we really prepared to worship a God that would commit millions of otherwise good souls to burn in Hell?

But you have heard!


Is God unjust?

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin would I go to Hell?

If the answer is, "No," why would you ever tell anyone about Christianity, God, Jesus and Sin?

If the answer is, "Yes," are we really prepared to worship a God that would commit millions of otherwise good souls to burn in Hell?

I wonder if anyone can miss the point as badly as you did here.





If the desire to know the answer to this really burns within you, then...

[b]why don't you ask Him?[b]

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Now I don't really understand you.
You mean that a good non-christian person has to suffer the fires of hell eternally, but a evil christian would enjoy the paradice for ever?
And this is not cruel?

That's one reason that I think the I cannot believe in the christian god, because it's so far from the teaching of love from the great filosopher Jesus.

what i am saying is that you must be able to differentiate the teachings of Christ from the teachings of the church or so called Christianity, the two are not the same!

Christ for example never taught that there was a hell of literal eternal torment, quite contrary to what the church, Christianity and the majority of Christians profess.

here perhaps jaywill, epi and a host of other Christians may disagree, but if they will do their research they will see that hell, as an eternal place of literal torment is not taught by Christ. we have had many discussions on this subject in the past and the whole of their premise rests with the erroneous assertion, that we have a 'soul', or in other words some entity that transcends death and is able to live on forever, also not a teaching of Christ!

what say you Fabians, are the two not distinct, the sublime teachings of Christ and the traditions of the church!

No one but God knows the true heart, so the idea that Mussolini is in heaven just because he said he was a Christian is weaker than cat urine.
As for those who have never heard The Word, I trust that God will reach those people in His own inimitable way. There's a verse in I Peter that gives a lot of us comfort that for one who truly wants to know God, the truth will be sent. Some would say this refers to missionaries, radio waves, etc. I'll just accept the miracle route.