If I die...

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Actually I am an atheist. You right, its the satisfaction of him knowing he's wrong. Or prehaps the satisfaction of me knowing that he knows hes wrong.

I believe that if you jump of a really tall building you will be able to fly! Would you like to have the satisfaction of proving me wrong and seeing my shocked expression as you fall to the ground. 🙂

Originally posted by twhitehead
I believe that if you jump of a really tall building you will be able to fly! Would you like to have the satisfaction of proving me wrong and seeing my shocked expression as you fall to the ground. 🙂

I don't believe that you believe that. I believe my friend believes what he says he believes.

If I'm perfectly honest I don't care if he never realises hes wrong. As long as it doen't effect me people can believe whatever they want.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
do they have titties 'n beer?

there is if you join Pastafarianism.


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Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Ok fine so I can win. But I won't have the satisfaction of knowing it, and he won't know hes wrong.

But you know, my friend, that ultimately, you're on the team which represents honesty.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But you know, my friend, that ultimately, you're on the team which represents honesty.

Yeah. At least I'm not lying to myself, which I used to be before I realised atheism was the way.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
If you make a statment like that, with no evidence, I'd say the burden of proof lies on you. So why is there a heaven? Convince me.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source heav·en (hev'?n) Pronunciation Key
n.
The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.
Christianity
often Heaven The abode of God, the angels, and the souls of those who are granted salvation.
An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss.
Heaven God: Heaven help you!
heavens Used in various phrases to express surprise: Good heavens!
Any of the places in or beyond the sky conceived of as domains of divine beings in various religions.

I think for you the first definition is the proof you want for what you believe in, but for me I chose to believe what I want.
I have all the proof I need.

GinoJ stated that he wondered if there was a heaven, and I simply replied to him. After all, he did post his comment for all to see and reply to in this public forum.

Will there be anything else Jake?



😉😉

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But you know, my friend, that ultimately, you're on the team which represents honesty.

Now you see! There you go implying that the only truly honest people are atheists! That because you believe that you know there is no God, that therefore theists are liars.

And don't think it was easy to say it. 😳

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Yeah. At least I'm not lying to myself, which I used to be before I realised atheism was the way.

Right! You used to be a liar. Now you're honest because you're an atheist.

You must have a profound sense of peace in your heart and mind now.

Originally posted by josephw
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source heav·en (hev'?n) Pronunciation Key
n.
The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.
Christianity
often Heaven The abode of God, the angels, and the souls of those who are granted salvation.
An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss.
He ...[text shortened]... l to see and reply to in this public forum.

Will there be anything else Jake?



😉😉

No thats quite suffitiant thankyou. Not so much proof though, I'd agree that its a matter of faith.

Originally posted by josephw
Right! You used to be a liar. Now you're honest because you're an atheist.

You must have a profound sense of peace in your heart and mind now.

I used to believe. Then I spent a lot of time trying to convince myself I believed. Eventually I realised that I couldn't keep on kidding myself.

Each to his own, I'll find peace my way, you can find it yours. I have found peace in religious terms because I know what I believe and I can get on with living my life. I believe this is the one shot, this life is whats important, so during my breif stint of awareness I'll make the best of it. Maybe I won't live on in sprit or body, but at least if I try my hardest to lead the best life I can, I might live on in at least a few peoples memories. Don't assume that everyone needs religion to be happy.

Originally posted by josephw
Now you see! There you go implying that the only truly honest people are atheists! That because you believe that you know there is no God, that therefore theists are liars.

And don't think it was easy to say it. 😳

If you are lying to yourself, you are still a liar.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
If you are lying to yourself, you are still a liar.

Prove I'm lying to myself!
We've already agreed that we can't prove our belief because it is based on faith. But I stop short of labeling someone a liar because I think they are wrong.
I know some very honest people who don't believe in God. And conversely christians that are less than honest.
In a sense I agree that if someone believes in something that's false and teaches that belief to others, is lying in as far as they are ignorant of the truth.
But that does not necessitate that that person is an outright liar.

I find myself at a juncture in my thinking where I want to concede that I could be wrong just to say I have an opened mind and therefore facilitate an open discussion. And I'm willing to do that in as far as keeping the discussion going is concerned.
But I would be less than honest if I said I have any doubts about what I believe.

But I also find that kind of reasoning to be somewhat convoluted.
It's the best I can do!

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
No thats quite suffitiant thankyou. Not so much proof though, I'd agree that its a matter of faith.

And as difficult as it is, being human, I respect others beliefs and faith.
Though at times it may not sound that way here in the forum.
Too many communication restraints are making this debate a struggle.

We need to respect each other. If I were to meet you out there in the world I would not be so bold and would do anything to show friendship.
But alas, respect is reciprocal.

Originally posted by josephw
Prove I'm lying to myself!
We've already agreed that we can't prove our belief because it is based on faith. But I stop short of labeling someone a liar because I think they are wrong.
I know some very honest people who don't believe in God. And conversely christians that are less than honest.
In a sense I agree that if someone believes in something tha ...[text shortened]... ut I also find that kind of reasoning to be somewhat convoluted.
It's the best I can do!

I agree with you. Honesty is realtive to the person. So I'm being honest in saying I'm an atheist, your honest in saying you a christian. Clearly we both arn't right, and each of us has reasons why we hold our particular beliefes. There is no way we can convince the other. Religion has power in numbers but not evidence. Christianity can survive through the strength of belief. However, if I was to tell you that fairaes exist you are unlikly to belive me. I don't have the strength of number on my side. Without evidence its a tricky position to mentain. Of course in the past people have held beliefs in fairaes that are as deep as your own. Muslims, Hindus, Sihks, Pagans all hold beliefes as strong as yours. Countless religions have been followed by entire cilivilisations, people have given their lives for beleifs that no longer exist. Do you think their faith was any less strong then your own? Do you think they didn't know with all their being that they were right? The evidence and basis for your faith and their faith is exactly the same. While you have numbers on your side your postion is comfortable. Doesn't make it right though.

Please remember that this is just what I believe. I'm not trying to convert you to atheism. Not only do I think that would be a waste of my time, but also I don't particuly care what you believe so long as it makes you happy. If you need belief in a God to try and give meaning to your life, or for comfort, or to avoid fear of death, or tobring some sence of eventual justice for all on earth then fine. I don't need that and I can lead my life fine without it. Some people may not be able to accept that as they want to do all they can to save my eternal soul. But some christians think anyone can go to heaven regardless of what they believe. So who should I listen to? All anyone, including me, can offer is opinion. I just think the need for God is pretty much the same as a need for Father Christmas.