Originally posted by rwingett
There are disastrous repercussions that go along with refusing this 'gift.' If there were no strings attached, then there would be no consequences to refusing it.

The consequences are not from refusing the gift.

The consequences are for sin.

Originally posted by josephw
The consequences are not from refusing the gift.

The consequences are for sin.

You are outright wrong.
Consequences of a choice are not equivalent to direct causes of the results.
For example, you jump off a cliff and halfway down you have the choice to grab a rope or keep falling. You choose to keep falling.
The direct cause of your death is falling on the rocks at the bottom. The initial cause might be said to be jumping off the cliff. However, dying is also as a direct consequence of choosing not to grab the rope.

On the other hand, if someone had a rope to offer you and chose not to, he wouldn't be a very nice person.
If the person said he had a rope but you didn't believe it then would you be wrong to not grab?
If someone chucked you off the cliff in the first place then is the rope really a gift?

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are outright wrong.
Consequences of a choice are not equivalent to direct causes of the results.
For example, you jump off a cliff and halfway down you have the choice to grab a rope or keep falling. You choose to keep falling.
The direct cause of your death is falling on the rocks at the bottom. The initial cause might be said to be jumping off th ...[text shortened]... grab?
If someone chucked you off the cliff in the first place then is the rope really a gift?

But you chose to jump first.

You see, we choose to reject or accept God's free gift of eternal life. God does not force us to reject or accept.

1. One chooses to jump off a cliff.
2. The consequences of jumping off a cliff is hitting bottom resulting in death.
3. God, in His mercy, offers the one jumping off a cliff a way to avoid hitting bottom.
4. One accepts the offer and is saved, or, one rejects the offer and dies.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]You see, we choose to reject or accept God's free gift of eternal life. God does not force us to reject or accept.

I dispute that we choose to reject or accept Gods free gift. I am not aware of any single person I have discussed this with who believed the offer was there and chose not to take it. Are you?
Can you make a choice if you are not aware of the options?[/b]

4. One accepts the offer and is saved, or, one rejects the offer and dies.
And there are consequences to which choice you make. Those consequences are not solely a consequence of jumping off the cliff, they are also a result of the choice. There are strings attached. A choice to which there are no strings attached cannot really exist as the two outcomes must necessarily be identical.

Originally posted by josephw
But you chose to jump first.

You see, we choose to reject or accept God's free gift of eternal life. God does not force us to reject or accept.

1. One chooses to jump off a cliff.
2. The consequences of jumping off a cliff is hitting bottom resulting in death.
3. God, in His mercy, offers the one jumping off a cliff a way to avoid hitting bottom.
4. One accepts the offer and is saved, or, one rejects the offer and dies.

Your analogy is a bit strange. Very few people jump off cliffs, but according to Christians only God can choose to not sin.

That is, "jumping off the cliff" is not a human choice. It's how God chose to make us (assuming there's a God etc).

Originally posted by twhitehead
I dispute that we choose to reject or accept Gods free gift. I am not aware of any single person I have discussed this with who believed the offer was there and chose not to take it. Are you?
Can you make a choice if you are not aware of the options?

4. One accepts the offer and is saved, or, one rejects the offer and dies.
And there are c ...[text shortened]... e are no strings attached cannot really exist as the two outcomes must necessarily be identical.[/b]

"I am not aware of any single person I have discussed this with who believed the offer was there and chose not to take it. Are you?"

Interesting statement. Are you saying you're not aware of the offer of eternal life from God?


We're here. Here we are. All of us. We're all falling off a cliff as it were. We're all going to die. According to the Bible death is the result of sin. So sin, (falling off a cliff) results in death. God, is willing to save us from the consequences of sin.

As we are falling, God throws us a life line. If we refuse to grab hold of it we suffer the consequences of hitting bottom.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Your analogy is a bit strange. Very few people jump off cliffs, but according to Christians only God can choose to not sin.

That is, "jumping off the cliff" is not a human choice. It's how God chose to make us (assuming there's a God etc).

Read the whole thread Mr. Young.


"That is, "jumping off the cliff" is not a human choice. It's how God chose to make us (assuming there's a God etc)."

Based on the Biblical account, God did not create man a sinner. Man chose to sin.

Originally posted by josephw
Interesting statement. Are you saying you're not aware of the offer of eternal life from God?

Yes I am. Of course I have heard you make the claim that such an offer exists, but I don't believe you. How could I? The person or entity you are claiming is making the offer doesn't exist.

As we are falling, God throws us a life line. If we refuse to grab hold of it we suffer the consequences of hitting bottom.
Correct. And that is a consequence of not grabbing the line is it not? The fact that it would have happened if the choice was not there does not stop it from being a consequence of the choice, nor does it stop the choice from having 'strings attached'.

Originally posted by josephw
Based on the Biblical account, God did not create man a sinner. Man chose to sin.

I am not 'man' nor am I responsible for his choices. The Biblical account does make it abundantly clear that I have no choice but to sin. Can you honestly absolve an omnipotent God from the creation of this scenario? If my situation is a result of 'man' being responsible for my predicament, then who put 'man' in charge of me?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not 'man' nor am I responsible for his choices. The Biblical account does make it abundantly clear that I have no choice but to sin. Can you honestly absolve an omnipotent God from the creation of this scenario? If my situation is a result of 'man' being responsible for my predicament, then who put 'man' in charge of me?

"The Biblical account does make it abundantly clear that I have no choice but to sin."

You got that right. The Bible also makes it abundantly clear that God created all that exists and that all that exists is proof of a creator.


"Can you honestly absolve an omnipotent God from the creation of this scenario?"

God didn't create Adam a sinner. Adam chose of his own free will to disobey God. Just as you do. Me too.


"If my situation is a result of 'man' being responsible for my predicament, then who put 'man' in charge of me?"

This question, and the your first statement I can answer together.
Are there choices that you can make that directly effect your children? (assuming you have children)
In the same way, what Adam(the first man)chose to do effected the whole human race. It's about the spirit. Without Christ our spirit is dead to God.

If you could just view the whole picture from God's perspective you would quickly see that this is a drama being played out.

It will be over soon.

Originally posted by josephw
This question, and the your first statement I can answer together.

I am still waiting for the answer as you haven't given one. The question is who put Adam in charge of my fate? You have merely repeated that fact that he was in charge (and messed it up).

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"I am not aware of any single person I have discussed this with who believed the offer was there and chose not to take it. Are you?"

Interesting statement. Are you saying you're not aware of the offer of eternal life from God?


We're here. Here we are. All of us. We're all falling off a cliff as it were. We're all going to die. According to the ...[text shortened]... a life line. If we refuse to grab hold of it we suffer the consequences of hitting bottom.[/b]

...According to the Bible death is the result of sin. So sin, (falling off a cliff) results in death. God, is willing to save us from the consequences of sin...

But didn't the Bible say that god told the first humans (prior to their sins) to go forth and multiply?
Since if we suppose both that death is the result of sin, and that for the sake of argument that Adam & Eve (and their hypothetical spawn) didn't sin then they would keep multiplying, and multiplying, and multiplying,..., and multiplying until there were no more resources left on the Earth to sustain further multiplication. But they would still multiply, and then they would starve.

Doesn't seem reasonable to me that "death is the result of sin".