In Order For You To Be A Christian

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Good point. The only Christians that responded to my thread were Coconut, who agreed with me, and Ivanhoe, who didn't challenge me.

Maybe that means that despite your beliefs, Christians really do agree with me and you are mistaken?

I know many Christians and none espouse the ideas summarized by you in your first post. When I was going to a religious grammar and secondary school, our Christian religious studies did not express the belief that Man was instrinsically "vile" and "evil" and that everyone deserved damnation. Unless mainstream Christianity changed a whole lot in the last 30 years and I missed it, I still believe that those ideas are extreme, minority positions among worldwide Christianity.

Originally posted by telerion
[b]God cannot be with the sinful.

Was Jesus God? Didn't he hang out with us sinners here on Earth? Didn't God and the Devil have a little tea time in the book of Job?

Is it that God cannot be with the sinful or is it that he chooses not to be with the sinful?

BTW Jesus never went through eternal damnation. He only did it for three days.
...[text shortened]... ause he is the creator, he can.[/b]

Oh, I see so he's not responsible for his actions huh? [/b]

I think it's more accurate to say that a sinner cannot be with God. By definition, a sinner rejects God and all that He stands for. He wont abide by God, he wont abide with God. Why would he?

Having made the decision to reject God, even when He did come and walk with man, he will either continue to reject God, or repent and turn to God. God's arms are always open.

Originally posted by frogstomp
All things are possible: if you believe in Him.

Even the Devil knows how to quote the Bible. 😉

Originally posted by dj2becker
Even the Devil knows how to quote the Bible. 😉

Too bad you and your ilk don't know how to read and understand the Gospels.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Even the Devil knows how to quote the Bible. 😉

13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that
heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and
bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world: 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me
meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye
took me in: 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say
unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these
my brethren, ye have done it unto me.



READ it dj it was written for you 2000 years ago.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Do you Christians really realize what this means?

For how many centuries have we been saying it, and now you are telling us?

Do you realize the insult you're giving to your kids, your love, your parents, and all the heroes of history?

Insult?

It is often said that the Christian concept of sin leads to unhealthy guilt complexes and low self-esteem. I have seen with my own eyes what abuses of the doctrine can do. But the doctrine itself leads by necessity to no such problems.

Let's imagine God made me perfect, and then said that He loves me. How should I know whether His love was conditional or unconditional? Perhaps He only loves me because I am perfect.

But knowing I am a sinner leads only to a huge increase in my sense of self-worth, -value, and -esteem. That God loves enough to love even me is amazing. Jesus loves me enough to suffer like you and I can't imagine. That is how much I am worth to Him and to His Father. If God, who doesn't need me, values me like that, then I must be valuable.

I don't deserve God's love. Before I knew that I had self-esteem problems.

Do you realize the insult you're giving to your kids, your love, your parents, and all the heroes of history?

I do not feel insulted by God when He says I am a sinner. I hope and expect that my kids, my wife, my parents, and any person in history, from the least to the greatest, will see me for what I am. I am not perfect.

Insult? How can I be insulted? It's true! I'm not perfect. It is no insult to call a thief a thief.

Take my wife, for example. She knows I think she's a sinner. I know she knows I'm a sinner. I also know that her love for me is utterly unconditional. I have seen that. I have deserved to see her walk away from me forever. But she never did. Forgiveness, patience, and unconditional love. And it wasn't until I saw my own sinfulness clearly that I had even a vague idea of the wonders of her love.

And hers is but a shadow of God's love.

Am I insulting my wife when I say she's a sinner? My wife knows that I will always love her. Good luck convincing her that's an insult. My children are secure in my love, because no matter how often they do what they should not, I love them. My wife knows that she does not deserve God's love. To call her a sinner is no insult. It's just true.

You have to admit that you ... [are] a vile, evil person who really, really deserves horrific, eternal torture.

This is the really hard part. I think the question of insulting one's loved ones is a smoke screen. The hard part is admitting your own imperfection, your own sin, the fact that you will never measure up. I know it was the hard part for me. My pride resisted. Surely, I thought, I am perfect.

But I'm not. And I'm glad there were people who loved me enough to tell me the truth. We live in an age where performance standards too often get lowered to protect the self-esteems of under-achievers. Christianity has too often buckled under this pressure to lower the bar.

I need to go. I am preparing to preach tonight, to tell a bunch of people that they are sinners, imperfect, not worthy of being in God's presence, deserving of Hell. That will be a small part of the message. To take that doctrine in isolation is an abuse of it. The fact is that, in right relation to other doctrines, the doctrine of sin serves to underscore the greatness of God's love. It is my honest expectation that there will be improved self-esteems in the congregation tonight.

If you don't like being called a sinner, then ignore us. I can recall being taught at a young age: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Originally posted by huntingbear
Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]Do you Christians really realize what this means?

For how many centuries have we been saying it, and now you are telling us?

Do you realize the insult you're giving to your kids, your love, your parents, and all the heroes of history?

Insult?

It is often said that the Christian concep ...[text shortened]... being taught at a young age: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.[/b]

If humans are indeed basically evil, and if God created us: it follows that God created us to be evil.
That is at odds with Christ words in Mathew 13 I believe.

Originally posted by huntingbear
Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]Do you Christians really realize what this means?

For how many centuries have we been saying it, and now you are telling us?

Do you realize the insult you're giving to your kids, your love, your parents, and all the heroes of history?

Insult?

It is often said that the Christian concep ...[text shortened]... being taught at a young age: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.[/b]

Insult?

Yes, insult. You think your wife should go to Hell. She deserves eternal torment. That would be justice in your opinion. Am I wrong?

That is an insult no matter how much you tell her you love her anyway.

Let's imagine God made me perfect, and then said that He loves me. How should I know whether His love was conditional or unconditional? Perhaps He only loves me because I am perfect.

Maybe now he only loves you because you're imperfect. Nothing's improved over the scenario you're describing.

Insult? How can I be insulted? It's true! I'm not perfect. It is no insult to call a thief a thief.

But it is an insult to say someone deserves horrific, miserable, never ending agony without any possibility of escape. This is far more than just being imperfect. Nobody deserves that.

To think that your daughter deserves humiliation, misery, disappointment, searing pain, loneliness...simply because she's human is sick.

I can see how it would feel really good to be loved when you're convinced you're filth, but this isn't a healthy way to feel good. It's like that joke..."I hit myself in the face over and over again because it feels so good when I stop."

How secure can anyone be in your love when they know you think they don't deserve to have you love them, and can never do anything th make you think they deserve it?

I freely admit my imperfection. I do not freely admit I deserve to suffer for eternity. There is a huge difference between the two.

I think it's good to say to people that everyone has issues, everyone makes mistakes, and everyone has failings. It's sick to say to people that they deserve horrible punishment for having these perfectly natural human qualities.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Insult?

Yes, insult. You think your wife should go to Hell. She deserves eternal torment. That would be justice in your opinion. Am I wrong?

That is an insult no matter how much you tell her you love her anyway.

L ...[text shortened]... ble punishment for having these perfectly natural human qualities.

Seriously. Who can look at their mother, their wife, their husband or father, their children, their true love - and honestly say that it would be acceptable for them all to go screaming into an eternal pit of despair? Who can honestly tell themselves that these people really deserve this fate?

"You're a filthy and vile piece of garbage and deserve to be tortured for eternity. But I still love you! Doesn't that make you happy?!"

What a sick, bizaare mindset.

Originally posted by frogstomp
If humans are indeed basically evil, and if God created us: it follows that God created us to be evil.

We have a thread around here for that. I believe it's in the Debates Forum. It's entitled Human Free Will. It moves very slowly because the main participants are all very busy.
My short answer to your objection above is that I do not agree with your first premise, and so I am not obliged to accept the conclusion. Any longer an answer requires more from me in the way of time and effort than I am currently prepared to give. Accept my apologies. If we must remain disagreed, that's fine with me.

That is at odds with Christ words in Mathew 13 I believe.

I would like to read an expansion of your thoughts on Matthew 13, and how you believe it contradicts the doctrine of sin. If you are able and willing to explain, that would rock. If not, that's ok.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Yes, insult. You think your wife should go to Hell. She deserves eternal torment. That would be justice in your opinion. Am I wrong?

Just to verify, I posed this to my wife not two hours ago. I said:

"Deb, just to verify, if I said that you are a sinner and that, on your own, you deserve to go to Hell, would you find that insulting?"
She looked at me like I had lobsters crawling out of my ears. She said:
"No ... that's just a fact."
So I said, "Do you think it emphasizes the unconditional nature of my love, and God's?"
And she said, "Yes ... but mostly God's, because you're in the same boat I'm in."

And I walked away thinking of Proverbs 18:22.

That's a true story.

That is an insult no matter how much you tell her you love her anyway.

I don't know how carefully you read my post. It has nothing to do with telling her I love her. It has to do with loving her. I don't mind being called a sinner, because I love the truth. But if you are suggesting that my profession of love for my wife is insincere then you have insulted me more than anyone else I can think of up until this day, my thirtieth birthday.

But my wife knows I'm a sinner, and if you doubt the sincerity of my love for her, you'd be wrong, but if you doubt her love for me you'd be a fool twenty times over. I do not deserve her love in the slightest, and I feel immensely secure in her love to know that I have it anyway.

But it is an insult to say someone deserves horrific, miserable, never ending agony without any possibility of escape. This is far more than just being imperfect. Nobody deserves that.

None of us deserves to be with God. Logic necessitates that one is either with God, or without, for any third option would be a contradiction. Therefore, we all deserve separation from Him, which is Hell, which is the worst possible situation in which a human being can find him- or herself. Now, I think you already know that I believe all that, and I already know that you believe I'm wrong.

To think that your daughter deserves humiliation, misery, disappointment, searing pain, loneliness...simply because she's human is sick.

Please don't play fast and loose with my words. The phrase "simply because she's a human" distorts my beliefs. Don't think I've given you a thorough, systematic expression of my view of sin. I haven't. Neither can you summarize my current, partial expression of my views thus and do them justice. You assume too much, and it does not become you. I have said that an imperfect person is a sinner, and a sinner deserves separation from God, which is the worst thing a person could experience. You have inserted a premise, assumed but unstated, that simply being human suffices to make one a sinner, a premise never stated by me, and with which I disagree whole-heartedly.

I can see how it would feel really good to be loved when you're convinced you're filth, but this isn't a healthy way to feel good.

Again, you assume too much. You're getting all the carts before all the horses, and then trying to imagine how I feel, how my wife feels, how Christians feel. I don't try to reduce you to cardboard pseudo- psychological slogans, because that's insulting.

I don't dwell on my sinfulness. I dwell on God's love and my gratitude for it, which is the life I live with all my heart, trying to do good and not evil. Humility consists not in thinking oneself filth, but in not thinking of oneself. I am far from perfect in that regard, but that is my aim.

I am unsure of your motive for your distortions of my beliefs, but for now I will assume it to be misunderstanding, in that you have certain presumptions about the psychological state of Christians which you are having trouble giving up.

How secure can anyone be in your love when they know you think they don't deserve to have you love them, and can never do anything th make you think they deserve it?

I know I feel secure in my wife's love for me, though I know she knows I don't deserve it and could never earn it. To think that I could! How it would insult her by under-valuing her love! Even worse, to think that I deserved God's love! I think the bigger difference between you and me may be in our views of love, rather than of sin.

I freely admit my imperfection. I do not freely admit I deserve to suffer for eternity. There is a huge difference between the two.

That's precisely the point under consideration. I believe there are only two kinds of people: perfect and sinful. You may, of course, disagree. You may feel insulted. You are entitled to all that.

I think it's good to say to people that everyone has issues, everyone makes mistakes, and everyone has failings.

I agree. I say that a lot.

It's sick to say to people that they deserve horrible punishment for having these perfectly natural human qualities.

I'm sick, am I? Well, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Originally posted by huntingbear
Originally posted by frogstomp
[b]If humans are indeed basically evil, and if God created us: it follows that God created us to be evil.

We have a thread around here for that. I believe it's in the Debates Forum. It's entitled Human Free Will. It moves very slowly because the main participants are all very busy.
My short an ...[text shortened]... he doctrine of sin. If you are able and willing to explain, that would rock. If not, that's ok.[/b]

If you don't accept the first premise or the conclusion, there's no argument between us.
Mathew 13 is in opposition to the first premise, and the conclusion also.

This thread isn't about free will it's about people contending the basic nature of mankind is "vile" and "evil" from birth.

I didn't think you thought people are born bad. That's why I put the argument in a bit more formal context. ( not that formal logic is one of my strenghts).

Originally posted by frogstomp
If you don't accept the first premise or the conclusion, there's no argument between us.

Cool.

Mathew 13 is in opposition to the first premise, and the conclusion also.

I'm still intrigued ... would you mind a little elaboration?

This thread isn't about free will it's about people contending the basic nature of mankind is "vile" and "evil" from birth.

I see free will as a vital ingredient in the answer to that question.

I didn't think you thought people are born bad.

I couldn't really answer yes or no to whether people are "born bad." Some Christians may see it as a simple question, but I do not. The thing about doctrines is that tinkering with one affects the whole lot. Doctrines are only separated and labelled to facilitate our thinking, but the whole truth can't really be partitioned out like that. I mention this because it helps to explain why I feel unable to get into certain questions in detail. A question like whether people are born bad would require us to iron out more doctrine than we could in a reasonable time. We'd need to hash out a thousand terms and by then we'd be very old, having missed out on a lot in life.

That's why I put the argument in a bit more formal context. ( not that formal logic is one of my strenghts).

I'm in the same boat. I have no training in formal logic. I like to watch some of the guys around here in action, because I've learned a lot that way.

Good to meet you, by the way.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
You have to admit that you; your mother and father; your children; Mother Theresa; every President we've ever had in the U.S.; Ghandhi; Martin Luther King Jr.; and everyone else who has ever existed; is a vile, evil person who really, really deserves horrific, eternal torture. This is a torture worse than being raped, worse than being immerse ...[text shortened]... the insult you're giving to your kids, your love, your parents, and all the heroes of history?

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Attempting to speak for Christians, yes, we do agree with God. He knows what He's talking about, and the evidence around us is clear enough. I think that Mother Theresa herself was humble enough to admit that even she needed a savior.

There is no 'insult' intended, by the way. We all live in the same glass house and so are not out to throw stones. But we do want to share the treasure we have found. That is, the free deliverance from the fate we all deserve.

The good news is that the suffering you describe is not inevitable! One simply calls on the name of the Lord to be saved. (Try really asking yourself why is that so hard anyway?)

A Christian is like a beggar in a world of beggars. He stumbled upon an open invitation to a banquet, but before he goes in, he goes out to tell his fellow beggars what he's discovered to bring them along. This is what it means to call yourself a Christian.

Originally posted by huntingbear
Originally posted by frogstomp
[If you don't accept the first premise or the conclusion, there's no argument between us

Cool.

Mathew 13 is in opposition to the first premise, and the conclusion also

I'm sti because I've learned a lot that way.

Good to meet you, by the way

good to meet you too.

I don't get the sense that we are bad and have to become good from the parables : Quite the opposite we start out good ( the look on a baby's face the first time they recognize their mother, is all the proof I need) , and things happen later that influence us.

I'm more interested in the universality of the message , as to it coming from sources outside the the Christian faith.
I did notice Christ wasn't asking for a personal alliegence, just hear the word and understand and act accordingly.
Which brings me back to the importance of mathew 25

I realize that might be a bit garbled but its the best I can do today.