In the beginning...

Originally posted by RJHinds
But the Holy Bible had it right all along.

Ron, the Bible does get it right most of the time, but the problem lies in what happens when people start thinking their interpretation is the only one, especially when that interpretation is just wrong. We're literally thousands of years away from the authors, and in many cases what they meant is simply not what we would mean by it today. We have to give it that slant of understanding to get what they meant thousands of years ago. Many people forget that when they read the Bible. Luckily, we can get most of the hidden meaning through context, but even that is beyond a lot of people.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Ron, the Bible does get it right most of the time, but the problem lies in what happens when people start thinking their interpretation is the only one, especially when that interpretation is just wrong. We're literally thousands of years away from the authors, and in many cases what they meant is simply not what we would mean by it today. We have ...[text shortened]... we can get most of the hidden meaning through context, but even that is beyond a lot of people.

What do you mean "most of the time" ? What are you, a wishy washy believer? The Holy Bible gets it right all the time. When there is a conflict, it has always been human understanding that was wrong.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But the Holy Bible had it right all along.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But the Holy Bible had it right all along.
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Yes, Ron. God has made every provision for all believers in Christ to grow from infancy to maturity during life on earth:

Ephesians 4:11-24 "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15. but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

16. from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. 17. So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18. being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19. and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20. But you did not learn Christ in this way,

21. if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22. that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23. and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24. and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." Ephesians 4:32 "Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eph&c=4&t=NASB

Originally posted by RJHinds
What do you mean "most of the time" ? What are you, a wishy washy believer? The Holy Bible gets it right all the time. When there is a conflict, it has always been human understanding that was wrong.

EXACTLY.

And in this case (evolution/creation, and eternal punishment) , I respectfully submit that you, having only "human understanding", are wrong.

I freely admit, and have done so before, that several of my own interpretations of the Bible will turn out to have been wrong.

A little humility is never out of place.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH


If we are to believe CalJust, ALL scientists have ALWAYS thought the world was round, but it took time for the rest of the world to come around.
Wrong.
MOST scientists of those times either had no opinion on the matter or considered the world flat.

Not only do you knowingly or unknowingly misrepresent my point, but you draw another red herring across the thread!

The essence of the point I was making (and am still making in this thread) is Biblical exegesis.

In the times before Galileo and Copernicus, scientists DID agree with the church that the earth was flat, and about 6000 years old.

Then scientists started to change their mind ON THE BASIS OF NEW EVIDENCE.

It was the church that stuck to their original, now proven wrong, interpretation. Much later they updated the flat-earth belief, but for many the 6000 year old belief has remained stuck.

(I also agree with RJH statement that the Bible was true all along! However, the intangible concept of Truth was now attributed to the bible passages which previously showed geocentricity, and adapted so as not to look too foolish!)

The point that i have made here all along, but which has been studiously avoided by RJH, BG, Freaky and sonship, is that:

1. I have no problem whatsoever if they interpret the bible, and specifically Genesis 1, in any way they wish. They have a lot of support for their view in the Bible Belt States.

2. BUT i have a real problem with them repeatedly claiming that this is the ONLY possible interpretation, and that our salvation depends on it. I have shown indisputably that there are knowledgable, sincere and highly respected christian scholars who hold an opposing view.

That is the ONLY point that I am making!

If we accept the fact that there are many, many passages of the Bible that are being interpreted differently by the myriad versions of the Christian Church, each of them with a level of "truth", then we should be careful to trumpet that we are the only ones that are correct.

I am reminded of Paul's words, when he said: "Surely you are the people, and Wisdom will die with you!"

Originally posted by CalJust
EXACTLY.

And in this case (evolution/creation, and eternal punishment) , I respectfully submit that you, having only "human understanding", are wrong.

I freely admit, and have done so before, that several of my own interpretations of the Bible will turn out to have been wrong.

A little humility is never out of place.

CJ, that's why the gift of pastor-teacher is given... to accurately exegete and categorize biblical truth from the text of the original languages and then present it to serious students of the Word of God systematically. Among the last words of Christ at the Golgotha Crucifixion to His disciples were, "Feed my sheep". Sheep need leadership to even find water and food.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
CJ, that's why the gift of pastor-teacher is given... to accurately exegete and categorize biblical truth from the text of the original languages and then present it to serious students of the Word of God systematically. Among the last words of Christ at the Golgotha Crucifixion to His disciples were, "Feed my sheep". Sheep need leadership to even find water and food.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Every pastor-teacher should always (and, I would suggest, most do) strive to accurately interpret the Word and feed the flock.

However, (be honest!) have you ALWAYS been correct in your interpretation? Are you as infallible as the Pope?

And what about the times in Church History where new truths were revealed and old ones corrected? I'm thinking here of, for example, the Protestant Reformation, the Wesleyan Revival and even Azusa Street. How did this happen?

Is it not true that the worst enemies of any new Truth are the custodians of the previous Truth?

Originally posted by CalJust
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Every pastor-teacher should always (and, I would suggest, most do) strive to accurately interpret the Word and feed the flock.

However, (be honest!) have you ALWAYS been correct in your interpretation? Are you as infallible as the Pope?

And what about the times in Church History where new truths were revealed and ...[text shortened]... Is it not true that the worst enemies of any new Truth are the custodians of the previous Truth?

Originally posted by CalJust
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Every pastor-teacher should always (and, I would suggest, most do) strive to accurately interpret the Word and feed the flock.

A pastor-teacher's assigned responsibility is to study and teach from the original languages... daily as Christ set the example during His First Advent, not a 45 minute topical homily once a week. To grow, believers require spiritual food daily.

However, (be honest!) have you ALWAYS been correct in your interpretation? Are you as infallible as the Pope?

Rightly understood, there is no private interpretation authorized: the Plenary Verbal Inspiration of the Word of God contains specific meaning in the very words themselves; human authors were guided by the Holy Spirit. There are vastly different interpretations because of superficial skimming without accurate isagogics, exegesis and categorical bible doctrinal rationales and applications being taught. Sadly, many congregations that survive on one fast food meal a week are content in their impoverishment because they have no preoccupation with Christ or love for God the Father or hunger for God's Word.

And what about the times in Church History where new truths were revealed and old ones corrected? I'm thinking here of, for example, the Protestant Reformation, the Wesleyan Revival and even Azusa Street. How did this happen?

Denominations are not authorized by the Word of God. Each resulted from an overemphasis of a particular doctrine over the whole harmonious body of revealed absolute truth... or distortions within the historical context. In the Church Age in which we live, the New Testament Model is the independent local church with a pastor (authority)-teacher (function).

Is it not true that the worst enemies of any new Truth are the custodians of the previous Truth?

The Canon of Scripture is completed and closed with its sixty six books. pastor-teachers functioning as God intended teach and believers maturing as God intended feed and are learning new truths systematically. It's a matter of priorities.
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"The Word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and the marrow, and is a critic of thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

"But a natural man [unbeliever] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them [the Gospel and Bible doctrine], because they are spiritually discerned [appraised]."
(1 Corinthians 2:14)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek [Gentile]." (Romans 2:16)

"For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are saved it is the power of God."
(! Corinthians 1:18)[/b]

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby

Rightly understood, there is no private interpretation ... There are vastly different interpretations because of superficial skimming ......

Denominations are not authorized by the Word of God. Each resulted from an overemphasis of a particular doctrine over the whole harmonious body of revealed absolute truth... or distortions within the historical c ...[text shortened]... ew Testament Model is the independent local church with a pastor (authority)-teacher (function).[/b]

Why am I not surprised?

All that you are saying here is (predictably!) : "I am right because my denomination has the correct insight into all the difficult parts of scripture. We do all things as God intended, and those that do and see things differently are wrong."

How could you say anything else? That would be heresy!

Originally posted by CalJust
Why am I not surprised?

All that you are saying here is (predictably!) : "I am right because my denomination has the correct insight into all the difficult parts of scripture. We do all things as God intended, and those that do and see things differently are wrong."

How could you say anything else? That would be heresy!

"Denominations are not authorized by the Word of God. Each resulted from an overemphasis of a particular doctrine over the whole harmonious body of revealed absolute truth... or distortions within the historical context. In the Church Age in which we live, the New Testament Model is the independent local church with a pastor (authority)-teacher (function)."

CJ, I have no "denomination"; the several pastor-teachers who have taught me in recent decades were based in local independent, autonomous local churches. Each has taught from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. There is no private interpretation of scripture. God's work is definitive and perfect.... as C.S. Lewis observed, 'Absolute truth was here before we were born and will be here after we're gone; our objective is to apprehend it'. Nothing you or I say changes it.

Edit Note: Absolute truth in the Word of God is the gold standard, the coin of the realm. As with any authenticity, there will always be human attempts to construct and present cheap counterfeits on varied colors and sizes of worthless paper.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Each has taught from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. There is no private interpretation of scripture. God's work is definitive and perfect.... as C.S. Lewis observed, 'Absolute truth was here before we were born and will be here after we're gone; our objective is to apprehend it'. Nothing you or I say changes it.

Edit Note: Absolute tru ...[text shortened]... empts to construct and present cheap counterfeits on varied colors and sizes of worthless paper.

You realize, of course, that you are just repeating yourself without adding any more light.

So I have to repeat myself, and hope you may understand if I say it a little differently....

EVERYBODY who holds a particular position is CONVINCED that they are correct. EVERYBODY claims to have been taught by learned scholars from "the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic."

EVERYBODY will say "there is no private interpretation of scripture", meaning that the one I hold is the authentic one sanctioned by God and the Holy Spirit.

And very few are prepared to admit that they are like one of the six blind men grabbing a part of an elephant and proclaiming that THAT part represents the whole.

It is not until we are ready to admit that we still "see through a glass darkly", and admit our own fallibility, that we begin to see the true light.

Btw, CS Lewis is one of my favourite authors, and if you have read his "Basic Christianity" you will recognize some of the sentiments that I keep expressing.

Originally posted by CalJust
You realize, of course, that you are just repeating yourself without adding any more light.

So I have to repeat myself, and hope you may understand if I say it a little differently....

EVERYBODY who holds a particular position is CONVINCED that they are correct. EVERYBODY claims to have been taught by learned scholars from "the original Hebrew, Greek ...[text shortened]... read his "Basic Christianity" you will recognize some of the sentiments that I keep expressing.

"Mere Christianity" was the first Clive Staples Lewis book I read... and have recommended it without hesitation.

Postscript: At least you now seem to be less troubled by God's purpose for creating the bothersome mosquito.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Mere Christianity" was the first Clive Staples Lewis book I read... and have recommended it .

But you have obviously not understood it.

How could you otherwise be so dogmatic about doctrines like YEC and Eternal punishment, which are really not at the core, and highly controversial?

How could you possibly act so pompously superior and infallible, if you see the bigger picture?

😳

Originally posted by CalJust
But you have obviously not understood it.

How could you otherwise be so dogmatic about doctrines like Creation and Eternal punishment, which are really not at the core, and highly controversial?

How could you possibly act so pompously superior and infallible, if you see the bigger picture?😳

Perhaps your own pastor-teacher would be willing to clarify a few of the basic bible doctrines you find perplexing.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Perhaps your own pastor-teacher would be willing to clarify a few of the basic bible doctrines you find perplexing.

(Sigh!)

Yes.

And good night to you too...