Originally posted by avalanchethecat Assuming god is omniscient, there's no such thing as free will is there? He already knows in advance which of us will believe and which of us will follow reason instead. Or are you arguing that god is not omniscient?
Knowledge of the future does not take away freedom to act on the part of those who don't know the future.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH Knowledge of the future does not take away freedom to act on the part of those who don't know the future.
If god knows I will do X in the future then my inability to know I will do X is of no consequence. By some mechanism inherent within me or the universe around me I am compelled to do X otherwise I contradict your god's omniscience in doing ¬X. Free will is only illusionary here.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH You likely will never hear a [b]satisfactory response to that question until you can first answer the question of why He allowed the perfect God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die as a substitute for imperfect man.[/b]
I will likely never hear a satisfactory response to that question because there is no satisfactory answer to that question.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH Knowledge of the future does not take away freedom to act on the part of those who don't know the future.
Presumably you are speaking about a libertarian construal of freedom. If so, then it should depend on the nature of the foreknowledge in question. If the foreknowledge is held infallibly, then it should indeed preclude libertarian freedom. If not, then I think the proponent of libertaranism need not fear. These points have already been debated at length in this forum. Perhaps I can find the old threads somewhere.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat Of course it does. Your god already knows what choice I'm going to make, so where's my free will?
So you are saying that an all powerful God is unable to provide us with "free will" even though he may know the end result? I guess he is not all powerful then in your sight, however, I believe he is.
Originally posted by whodey So you are saying that an all powerful God is unable to provide us with "free will" even though he may know the end result? I guess he is not all powerful then in your sight, however, I believe he is.
That is not a reply with any substance to be taken seriously. The claim would be that it is a logically impossible state of affairs for both (1) God to (infallibly) know our future willings and (2) for us to be free (in a libertarian sense) with respect to these same willings. Of course, even an all-powerful or omnipotent being is not committed to the ability to bring about logically impossible states of affairs. So people can very well hold that God is unable to provide for such states of affairs and yet still fully respect the idea that he is omnipotent. So, you need to get a better defense than this.
Originally posted by whodey So you are saying that an all powerful God is unable to provide us with "free will" even though he may know the end result? I guess he is not all powerful then in your sight, however, I believe he is.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH For those who are convinced it really all ends here, such considerations are redundant. For those who consider there to exist a hierarchy of sins, of wrongs, these same considerations are simply pointless.
The example you give is intended to incite shock, but only in that intention does your argument hold any water. Rape is shocking. Start smaller an ...[text shortened]... which God is bound by the nature of His character. That is the question that ought to be asked.
A scowl is the conveyance of a negative disposition towards some action (you acknowledge this in one of your posts to Karoly) and to this end it serves to extend the bank of knowledge held by the recipient of said scowl. The greater good may perhaps not be served by concealing this scowl.
Rape on the other hand, what good does this do the victim? In fact what good does it do anyone* apart from the rapist??? 😕
*no, giving the police things to do is not a valid response :]
Originally posted by Agerg The knee jerk response made by many theists to the claim that an omnipotent God doesn't stop cancer, rapists etc... and is therefore not perfectly good tends to be of the form
You think god should suspend physics and perform miracles on a second by second basis???
My answer to that would be [b]yes! Given the assumption it is omnipotent then it ...[text shortened]... knowledge this thread does not apply to a god that isn't assumed to be perfectly good etc...[/b]
what does it mean to you "to be perfectly good"?
a good being just has to do anything in his/her power to prevent bad things from happening? and the greater that beings power, the more bad thing must he prevent?
by this reasoning, you must prevent whatever it is in your power to prevent. you must give your belongings to other in more need. you must go join greenpeace or red cross as a volunteer. you must stop eating any kind of meat. you must do a lot of things. until you do these things you can't really fault god for not stopping volcanoes or the weather.
Originally posted by Zahlanzi what does it mean to you "to be perfectly good"?
a good being just has to do anything in his/her power to prevent bad things from happening? and the greater that beings power, the more bad thing must he prevent?
by this reasoning, you must prevent whatever it is in your power to prevent. you must give your belongings to other in more need. you must g ...[text shortened]... til you do these things you can't really fault god for not stopping volcanoes or the weather.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat Of course it does. Your god already knows what choice I'm going to make, so where's my free will?
how about he knows all the choices you possibly can make. and living outside the time tree he knows all the universe possible. so you have free will to choose which path you take and god is omniscient. everyone wins.
02 Jun '10 14:44
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