1. Hmmm . . .
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    25 Mar '07 07:11
    Some time back, I read a book called Does God Exist?, which was a debate between a theist (Christian) and an atheist philosopher, with commentary by others.

    The basic argument of the atheist was that the Christian (and monotheistic generally) concept of God was strictly incoherent. His claim was, as I recall, (1) that there is no ostensive definition of such a God (like giving a definition of a tree by pointing to one), and (2) that all word definitions reduce to some incoherency—such as “a supernatural being that exists outside of time and space.” His argument was that such words are as technically meaningless as the word “God” by itself. As a natural being, whose very consciousness has time-space dimensionality built into it, how can I understand—really—what such terms mean?

    Also there is the trilemma of a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent, who permits such natural evils as tsunamis and earthquakes that painfully kill and maim babies, in his creation. (The old “problem of evil.” )

    The same critique might be made by a nontheistic monist (such as a Zen Buddhist, or an Advaita Vedantist).

    Arguments?
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '07 07:30
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Some time back, I read a book called Does God Exist?, which was a debate between a theist (Christian) and an atheist philosopher, with commentary by others.

    The basic argument of the atheist was that the Christian (and monotheistic generally) concept of God was strictly incoherent. His claim was, as I recall, (1) that there is no ostensive defini ...[text shortened]... be made by a nontheistic monist (such as a Zen Buddhist, or an Advaita Vedantist).

    Arguments?
    I would disagree and I'll point to a conversation we are having else
    where for my reasoning. I started off with some labels, father,
    brother, and so on, each of these gave you a little something about
    me, not enough to really know me, that is only going to be done by
    those that basically, know me personally. So there are people who do
    not know God and simply don't have a relationship with God, and
    because of that belittle those that claim to have one. Job got a little
    glimpse when he said he heard about Him, but now... as God revealed
    Himself to Job, Job’s insight changed. It isn't that I cannot describe
    God, it is just that only through a personal relationship does
    Christianity become real, anything else is just a bunch or religious
    notions, like all other notions, they are between the ears of the
    follower, and they have nothing to do with the real life in God in
    Christ. God is the best part of Christianity!
    Kelly
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Mar '07 07:32
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I would disagree and I'll point to a conversation we are having else
    where for my reasoning. I started off with some labels, father,
    brother, and so on, each of these gave you a little something about
    me, not enough to really know me, that is only going to be done by
    those that basically, know me personally. So there are people who do
    not know God and ...[text shortened]... hing to do with the real life in God in
    Christ. God is the best part of Christianity!
    Kelly
    The Secret Decoder Ring Theory in a different form.
  4. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    25 Mar '07 07:32
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I would disagree and I'll point to a conversation we are having else
    where for my reasoning. I started off with some labels, father,
    brother, and so on, each of these gave you a little something about
    me, not enough to really know me, that is only going to be done by
    those that basically, know me personally. So there are people who do
    not know God and ...[text shortened]... hing to do with the real life in God in
    Christ. God is the best part of Christianity!
    Kelly
    So you are disagreeing without any coherent reasons for doing so?
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '07 07:39
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    So you are disagreeing without any coherent reasons for doing so?
    It is simply life Scott, if all you got were 2nd hand accounts about
    me, if you never had any direct contact me, how well would you know
    me? You more than likely know me better than everyone who has
    never debated me, but it is unlikely you know me better than those
    I live or work with. It isn't matter of the secret decoder ring as #1 was
    speaking of, it is simply a matter of rubbing shoulders with someone.
    There are many people in your life that know you better than I know
    you, are there not? Why is this so hard to grasp for you? If those that
    spoke about me to you were always accusing me of every bad thing
    that ever happened to you, you'd more than likely start to form a very
    negative opinion of me too, and none of it may be true.
    Kelly
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Mar '07 07:43
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    It is simply life Scott, if all you got were 2nd hand accounts about
    me, if you never had any direct contact me, how well would you know
    me? You more than likely know me better than everyone who has
    never debated me, but it is unlikely you know me better than those
    I live or work with. It isn't matter of the secret decoder ring as #1 was
    speaking of, ...[text shortened]... an likely start to form a very
    negative opinion of me too, and none of it may be true.
    Kelly
    When I see you and God at a Cubs game "rubbing shoulders" then we'll take this baloney seriously. Until then, I have no more reason to consider your belief in a personal God who has direct dealings with you as anything more than a mental illness like a guy who thinks he's Napoleon, Emperor of France.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '07 07:49
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    When I see you and God at a Cubs game "rubbing shoulders" then we'll take this baloney seriously. Until then, I have no more reason to consider your belief in a personal God who has direct dealings with you as anything more than a mental illness like a guy who thinks he's Napoleon, Emperor of France.
    YOU RESPONDED TO A POST I WROTE!
    Okay, cool.
    Kelly
  8. Illinois
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    25 Mar '07 07:50
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Some time back, I read a book called Does God Exist?, which was a debate between a theist (Christian) and an atheist philosopher, with commentary by others.

    The basic argument of the atheist was that the Christian (and monotheistic generally) concept of God was strictly incoherent. His claim was, as I recall, (1) that there is no ostensive defini ...[text shortened]... be made by a nontheistic monist (such as a Zen Buddhist, or an Advaita Vedantist).

    Arguments?
    To everything mentioned, I would say, "Of course". Of course we can't accurately conceptualize God. A more poignant question an atheist could possibly ask himself might be, "If a Creator God does exist, what would that Creator God's attributes have to be?" I think atheists cultivate blilndness to the possibility of a God by conceptually limiting the human mind; e.g. the human mind is so bound up in time and space that we must remain ignorant to any reality beyond time and space, and for this principle we must feign that ignorance if need be. 😉 I think if an atheist asks himself the said question (above), he would find that the idea of God really is as solid as a tree which he may point at and discuss concretely with others. Yes, we are bound in time and space, and our conceptualizing is born from things, but why underestimate the grasp of the mind? From our limited perspective, can't we imagine the opposite of limit? Can't we consider infinity, some reality without limit, in contrast to the finite and the limited?
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Mar '07 07:55
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    YOU RESPONDED TO A POST I WROTE!
    Okay, cool.
    Kelly
    And unlike you actually dealt with its content. That's toooooooooooooo much of a bother for you; so you may has well go have a "personal relationship" with your imaginary friend but maybe you should wear an imaginary condom when you do.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Mar '07 07:58
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    To everything mentioned, I would say, "Of course". Of course we can't accurately conceptualize God. A more poignant question an atheist could possibly ask himself might be, "If a Creator God does exist, what would that Creator God's attributes have to be?" I think atheists cultivate blilndness to the possibility of a God by conceptually limiting the h ...[text shortened]... onsider infinity, some reality without limit, in contrast to the finite and the limited?
    What blather. 3 O Theists don't conceptualize anything beyond time and space; they simply assert that it exists.
  11. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    25 Mar '07 07:58
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    It is simply life Scott, if all you got were 2nd hand accounts about
    me, if you never had any direct contact me, how well would you know
    me? You more than likely know me better than everyone who has
    never debated me, but it is unlikely you know me better than those
    I live or work with. It isn't matter of the secret decoder ring as #1 was
    speaking of, ...[text shortened]... an likely start to form a very
    negative opinion of me too, and none of it may be true.
    Kelly
    Your existence can be verified empirically, however.
  12. Illinois
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    25 Mar '07 07:59
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    What blather. 3 O Theists don't conceptualize anything beyond time and space; they simply assert that it exists.
    Wow, do you ever have anything to contribute?
  13. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    25 Mar '07 08:23
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    Wow, do you ever have anything to contribute?
    Pot...Kettle....

    Hardly a constructive post!

    When someone is singularly failing to answer a question, don't you think they should be pulled up on it??
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '07 08:26
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Your existence can be verified empirically, however.
    You believe everyone's existence can be verified empirically by
    anyone, every where else?
    Kelly
  15. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    25 Mar '07 08:58
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You believe everyone's existence can be verified empirically by
    anyone, every where else?
    Kelly
    Come again?!

    I don't understand.
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