Indefensible

Defend the concept that there are no absolutes.

And please, don't reply with 'defend the concept that there are absolutes'.
I'll do that in reply to your reply. Okay?

Let's have fun. No name calling or insults. Unless it's done in good humor.

Originally posted by josephw
Defend the concept that there are no absolutes.

And please, don't reply with 'defend the concept that there are absolutes'.
I'll do that in reply to your reply. Okay?

Let's have fun. No name calling or insults. Unless it's done in good humor.

There are absolutes but they are not percieved by our senses. So for us mortals there are no absolutes. Hows that for a start?

Originally posted by josephw
Defend the concept that there are no absolutes.

And please, don't reply with 'defend the concept that there are absolutes'.
I'll do that in reply to your reply. Okay?

Let's have fun. No name calling or insults. Unless it's done in good humor.

Please explain first what an 'absolute' is here supposed to be.

Originally posted by josephw
Defend the concept that there are no absolutes.

And please, don't reply with 'defend the concept that there are absolutes'.
I'll do that in reply to your reply. Okay?

Let's have fun. No name calling or insults. Unless it's done in good humor.

I would say that there are no absolutes (plural). If there is such a thing as an absolute, there can be only one. God, if He exists, would have to be the only absolute.

Originally posted by josephw
Defend the concept that there are no absolutes.

And please, don't reply with 'defend the concept that there are absolutes'.
I'll do that in reply to your reply. Okay?

Let's have fun. No name calling or insults. Unless it's done in good humor.

There may be absolutes, however, we may not be able to know them. For example, even our act of observing something has an impact upon it. A completely closed system cannot be observed, therefore, absolutes remain unobservable. To further complicate this, there is the uncertainty principal to contend with. For example, when trying to establish an absolute, the less confident we can be in the other things we "know".

Originally posted by josephw
Defend the concept that there are no absolutes.

And please, don't reply with 'defend the concept that there are absolutes'.
I'll do that in reply to your reply. Okay?

Let's have fun. No name calling or insults. Unless it's done in good humor.

If one could defend the statement "There are no absolutes" then it could be proven, and thereby an absolute, thus destroying the original statement "There are no absolutes...

The statement, while I believe true, is indefensible.

I would venture that the only “absolute” (ontologically, anyway*) would be the totality. By definition, there is no view from “outside” the totality, so there is no view of the totality. Every view is from a particular perspective from within the totality—and in that sense is relative.

______________________________________________

* LJ’s question still stands at this point.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Please explain first what an 'absolute' is here supposed to be.

Take your pick(s). From the Wiki:

Noun

That which is independent of context-dependent interpretation, inviolate, fundamental.

Adjective

Loosed from any limitation or condition; uncontrolled; unrestricted; unconditional; as, absolute authority, monarchy, sovereignty, an absolute promise or command.


Complete in itself; perfect; consummate; faultless.

Viewed apart from modifying influences or without comparison with other objects; actual; real; — opposed to relative and comparative; as, absolute motion; absolute time or space.

Absolute rights and duties are such as pertain to man in a state of nature as contradistinguished from relative rights and duties, or such as pertain to him in his social relations.
Loosed from, or unconnected by, dependence on any other being; self-existent; self-sufficing.
Note: In this sense God is called the Absolute by the Theist. The term is also applied by the Pantheist to the universe, or the total of all existence, as only capable of relations in its parts to each other and to the whole, and as dependent for its existence and its phenomena on its mutually depending forces and their laws.

Capable of being thought or conceived by itself alone; unconditioned; non-relative.
Note: It is in dispute among philosophers whether the term, in this sense, is not applied to a mere logical fiction or abstraction, or whether the absolute, as thus defined, can be known, as a reality, by the human intellect.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
There may be absolutes, however, we may not be able to know them. For example, even our act of observing something has an impact upon it. A completely closed system cannot be observed, therefore, absolutes remain unobservable. To further complicate this, there is the uncertainty principal to contend with. For example, when trying to establish an absolute, the less confident we can be in the other things we "know".

I probably do not understand what is mean by 'absolute' in this context. Is the uncertainty principle not absolute?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I probably do not understand what is mean by 'absolute' in this context. Is the uncertainty principle not absolute?

Depends upon scale and how small of a measurement you define as negligible.

For example, you could shoot an arrow at a target and argue that the distance between bow and the target can be split up into an infinte number of points. If you accept this, shouldn't it take an infinte amount of time for the arrow to pass through the infinte number of points in reaching the target? Why doesn't it? If you split a distance in half and subsequently halve that distance over and over again, at what point can you no longer split the distance? Can you measure this? Can you distinguish one point from another?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Take your pick(s). From the Wiki:

[b]Noun

That which is independent of context-dependent interpretation, inviolate, fundamental.

Adjective

Loosed from any limitation or condition; uncontrolled; unrestricted; unconditional; as, absolute authority, monarchy, sovereignty, an absolute promise or command.


Complete in itself; perfe ...[text shortened]... n, or whether the absolute, as thus defined, can be known, as a reality, by the human intellect.[/b]

Thanks, but I'll just wait until josephw finds the time to explain what he means by the term and thereby ground the discussion a bit better.

Also is the question about moral absolutes vs moral relativism ?









Manny